Crappy 15/30 Hand : KQs in EP

[GuyOnTilt]

I'm pretty sure I made some mistakes in this one. Not sure how significant they are, but I'm sure they're there.

This table WAS really nice, loose, and passive, but now it's starting to tighten up a bit. UTG folds and I raise with K /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif. MP cold-calls (decent postflop, a little loose preflop), and the Button 3-bets (tight/aggressive player; this 3-bet means a premium hand). Blinds fold and we both call. 3 to the flop for 10.7 SB's.

Flop comes: K /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I decide to bet out. MP calls and the Button raises. I call, planning to check-call down, and MP also calls. 3 to the turn for 8.3 BB's.

Turn comes: Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif[K /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif]

There goes that idea. I decide to check-raise and I do. MP folds and the Button 3-bets. This player was tight enough where he wouldn't 3-bet an EP raise with AJs or TT. I want to cap, I really do, but for some reason I don't. HU to the river for 14.3 BB's.

River comes: T /images/graemlins/heart.gif[Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif]

That is one of the worst cards I've ever seen (okay, I can think of a couple worse, but not many). I check and call.

So how'd I do? I'm not very comfortable saying I played the hand well, but I'd like to know where and why. Thanks guys!

GoT

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure I made some mistakes in this one. Not sure how significant they are, but I'm sure they're there.

This table WAS really nice, loose, and passive, but now it's starting to tighten up a bit. UTG folds and I raise with K /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif. MP cold-calls (decent postflop, a little loose preflop), and the Button 3-bets (tight/aggressive player; this 3-bet means a premium hand). Blinds fold and we both call. 3 to the flop for 10.7 SB's.

Flop comes: K /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I decide to bet out. MP calls and the Button raises. I call, planning to check-call down, and MP also calls. 3 to the turn for 8.3 BB's.

Turn comes: Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif[K /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif]

There goes that idea. I decide to check-raise and I do. MP folds and the Button 3-bets. This player was tight enough where he wouldn't 3-bet an EP raise with AJs or TT. I want to cap, I really do, but for some reason I don't. HU to the river for 14.3 BB's.

River comes: T /images/graemlins/heart.gif[Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif]

That is one of the worst cards I've ever seen (okay, I can think of a couple worse, but not many). I check and call.

So how'd I do? I'm not very comfortable saying I played the hand well, but I'd like to know where and why. Thanks guys!

GoT



[/ QUOTE ]

Preface...i'm not a big authority at all, love to think about game but no more than 1200 total hours at online low limts (mostly=1100 hours) and mirage and bellagio 10/20 15/30 and florida casino cruises 5/10 blinds nl and 10/20 making up the rest (lost $$ total online and low limits but way ahead in mid limit and nl games so overall about $2/hr total 2400 ahead)

on to the play: first off i don't know how likely ajs is from the button if you say he's tight aggressive. if that means he's a very good player then ajs is most likely a call since as the game tightened he wants blinds to call with ajs i think...anyway if hes REALLY tight you're most likely looking at "premium" hands like you said: aa, kk, qq, jj, tt, aks or o, aqs, and thats about it...he 3bet preflop, raised flop, reraised a checkraise on the turn (how to interpret this depends highly on how he values your c-r...i.e. how does he think you play?). anyway you're not ahead against much he'll do that with: ak is questionable (even most tight aggressives won't three bet turn w/ just top pair top kicker especially after you c-r them) aqs is out as is jj (unless by tight aggressive you mean tight aggressive and them maniacal on later streets). qq is a possibility as you may have been betting less than a king so he raises to find out if you really have k but most cases i'd fold qq if i were him...but he may think you're betting jj or aq or ajs as steal/semisteal bets and aa is certainly likely...but after the turn falls you have to consider folding b/c you are now looking at aa as the only hand you're still ahead of that he'd 3bet your c-r with... theres 6 ways to have aa now 4 ways to have kk, 4 ways to have qq, 1 way to have tt...IF You can confidently say he'd 3bet turn w/ ak then you are ahead alot more than you're behind...but otherwise you have to discount that possibility significantly...so it looks like a c (call) then c-c as you did if you don't believe him or a fold on the turn, probably better. once you call his 3bet on turn you call river. personally in the heat of battle i think i'd do what you did, but away from the table i lean towards a fold which would hopefully allow me to do likewise in a real game the next time.

questions? comments?
-Barron

[AJo Go All In]

from the player description it looks like we are up against AA, AK, KK, QQ.
so if he would 3-bet the turn with all of these holdings, you are a monster (7-1) favorite to be ahead on the turn.
if you think this is the case, then cap the turn.
the problem is (and why i'm guessing you didn't cap the turn) is that there's a decent chance he would call down with AA/AK rather than 3-bet. or maybe you just didn't have the grapes. i don't know. anyway, you should cap the turn.

on the river by our previous analysis you are even money as AA now beats you. you should check and call.

[AJo Go All In]

firstly, on what boat do you play 5/10 NL?

secondly, there is 1 way to have KK and 1 way to have QQ. only 2 kings and 2 queens left.

[DcifrThs]

you are correct...shoddy math leads to shoddy results...i was thinking for some reason 1 king accounted for and 1 q...forgot about the hand lol...but it is clearly 4 ways to have ak (i got that one right this time lol-one k w/ each of the 4 aces) 6 ways to have aa, so 10 ways you're ahead 1 way for kk, 1 way for qq and 1 way for tt so 3 ways you're behind so 10:3 or 3.333:1 shot to be ahead that one way he has tt makes a difference...further, like i said, do you REALLY think this TIGHT aggressive player reraises a c-r with ak??? i doubt it so i'll give you a 50% discount so now hes 9:3or 3:1 favorite. now if we play it my way and take out ak totally then its 2:1 fav still...so you choose how to play it but at least call him down. i may have been too hasty with the fold but if he's that tight what is he raising with you can beat? i still lean towards him having the set b/c of the 3bet AFTER the cr on the turn...even mason malmuth will call with aces after being c/r'd against a good % of his opponents and most certainly vs. an unknown (at least this is what i gather from reading a few of his posts about hands he's played:one of 'em is from may or april 99 entitled "15-30 bellagio hand" or something like that...BUT if i'm wrong and mason would actually play that 3bet then i don't want to be an ass and speak for him. BUT anyway my point is a r-r after a c-r from a tight aggressive signals very very big hand, usually better than aa or ak...at least i'd expect to see the set...so what did he have?

anyway, on the St. Tropez next to the ft. lauderdale airport spreads 5/10 nl minimum $500 buy in FOUR times a week!! every time i go visit my mom i play in it...just play sooo freaking tight and no matter what there'll be folks payin ya off...the come 100% to gamble: howie (my favorite super duper calling station) is in a $600 pot on the flop w/ tc2c. a q t rb flop, hes got a piece of it, all in bet for 350, call and he calls!! 2 hits turn and you know the rest ;-)

gotta love it...he called me all night with 2nd/3rd button and underpairs and basically anything that had a piece of anything lol, bought in for 900 left with 1700...as vince lapore (if you read the older archives) would say: CHA-CHING!

that boat is the best games ever!!! the 10/20's are awesome...20/40's reallly reallly big pots but too aggressive for my short b-r and large ass st. dev. 10/20's are nice and loooooose passive w/ a few rocks and 1 or two bad tricksters. now you really gotta love it!

-Barron

[Robk]

On the flop if you think there's enough chance for you to be ahead to call it down, I think you have to 3-bet. Why let MP in with 4, 5 outs or whatever getting his price to call one more on the flop? Also if he caps, maybe you get enough information to release the hand later depending on what comes and what happens.

On the turn you're a big favorite to have the best hand, but when he 3 bets I have to put him on the unlikely hands. That's too tough of a board to 3bet with one pair. I don't see anything wrong with calling down though given the size of the pot.

[astroglide]

i don't see the value in betting the flop. if he's tight/aggressive, he will could very well fold jacks or queens here.

if i'm against somebody whose 3betting and general standards are THAT good, i'd be more inclined to lead the turn and call a raise back then bet again on a non-scary river than to open myself up to 3 bets immediately.

[Brian]

Hi Guy,

I am sticking with my initial response over AIM. I would check-raise the Flop for a couple of reasons. One, your betting out doesn't really let you know where you are. The button may raise you with a large range of hands hoping to buy a free card on the Turn. AQ, AJ, or a spade draw are all possiblities. He may also raise you with QQ or JJ checking to see where you are at. This will leave you in a tough spot on the Turn if you don't improve. Secondly, I want MP out. If I am indeed ahead, I want to fold out MP if he is holding a hand like JT, 98, etc.

I would probably have bet out on the Turn. At this point, MP isn't really much of a factor anymore. You've got top two, so his two pair outs won't save him, and he's not going to fold any legitimate draw (straight, Flush, etc). I also don't want to check-raise this Turn and be 3-bet wondering whether or not I am ahead or behind. Most tight-aggressives here won't 3-bet you on this Turn without KK or QQ, and even though they are a much more remote possibility than AA or AK, if I am getting 3-bet on the Turn, I am seeing KK or QQ.

-Brian

[GuyOnTilt]

So would you check-call or check-raise the flop?

GoT

[astroglide]

if they're tight/aggressive, i would check/call.