Ethics question - reguarding players sitting out

[Hotrod0823]

I just played a 5.00 1 table SnG on Stars. We are down to 5 or 6 players and 1 guy with a stack of 2400 or so sits out. Okay I think nothing of it. Kids have to get tucked in, bathroom break, cigarette break etc.

Well he doesn't come back!??? /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

It is down to 4 and am ammassing a sizeable chip lead and I don't think I did it intentionally but I think I "helped" the other 2 guys playing there cards get into the money.

It really pissed me off that this guy just walked away. It is one thing if you disconnect and can't get back on but to sit out!! Come on!

Was I wrong to not "try" and put the other guys out?

I did continue on to win easily with a nice lead once heads up but it we "implicitly collude".

It left a bad taste in my mouth not to mention prolong the tourny.

What do you all think?

Hotrod

[DrPhysic]

I had one once recently that got in a 9 seat sng, doubled up once, and never played another hand. Ended up 2nd by not playing.

As unethical as it gets in poker, short of outright cheating, as far as I am concerned.

I have suggested to stars that for tournaments or sngs that get big enough that the ante's (not the blinds) be doubled for anyone sitting out.

For what it's worth. I definitely agree with you that there is an ethics question here that is unresolved in online poker.

Doc

[triplc]

The thing is...you never know what really happened. I was playing one night and the smoke alarm in my house starts going off at midnight. Well, we have a security system and before I know it the fire department is there looking around, and my wife is freaked out...and I never returned.

Yes, it does stink when it happens...but it does happen for legit reasons sometimes...

CCC

[Bozeman]

I don't see how y'all can take this out on the guy who steps out. They are his chips, he can do whatever he wants with them. And he is leaving them for you, so you should be happy.

If someone leaves, I think you should strategically play a little tighter against the others because there is some dead money, but you should continue to push edges, and try to get more than your share of his dead money. They also should correctly play a bit tighter, so continue to steal from them too. Be careful if a confrontation with them could cause you to blind out before goneguy.

Craig

[Hotrod0823]

That's an excellent point! I am not faulting the guy if it was legit.

I was pushing hard on the other two guys and winning my fair share but it was a bit strange just watching his blinds getting taken.

Hotrod

[CrisBrown]

Hiya Hotrod,

lol I had something like this happen to me yesterday. I'd signed up for a $55 two-table SNG, and was the only one at the table for about a half-hour. I was watching TV while I was waiting, and realized it was time to make dinner. So I went in and got dinner started, etc., and then remembered I was still signed up for the SNG!

I came back and the blinds were already 20/40. LOL

Cris

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I had one once recently that got in a 9 seat sng, doubled up once, and never played another hand. Ended up 2nd by not playing.

As unethical as it gets in poker, short of outright cheating, as far as I am concerned.



[/ QUOTE ]

Gimme a break! What is unethical about sitting out? Is it any different from sitting at the table but folding every hand?

The only obligation a player has is to pay his antes and/or blinds. If the tournament is structured so that the prize pool is so deep that one can win money by not playing, then so be it. Others can take the same path, or can choose to play and try to win the dead money of those not playing.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
I had one once recently that got in a 9 seat sng, doubled up once, and never played another hand. Ended up 2nd by not playing.

As unethical as it gets in poker, short of outright cheating, as far as I am concerned.

I have suggested to stars that for tournaments or sngs that get big enough that the ante's (not the blinds) be doubled for anyone sitting out.

For what it's worth. I definitely agree with you that there is an ethics question here that is unresolved in online poker.

Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

Doc,

What in hell are you talking about? It is unethical to fold hands? How can you say such a silly thing?

Or is your post a joke?

eastbay

[Hotrod0823]

I don't think sitting out is unethical-things happen. I was questioning my own ethics by not pushing as hard as I could've/should've on the remaining players at the table.

I felt like I was almost rooting for the others to hang on. That was what I didn't feel good about not that the guy left.

[M.B.E.]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar på:</font><hr />
I had one once recently that got in a 9 seat sng, doubled up once, and never played another hand. Ended up 2nd by not playing.

As unethical as it gets in poker, short of outright cheating, as far as I am concerned.

I have suggested to stars that for tournaments or sngs that get big enough that the ante's (not the blinds) be doubled for anyone sitting out.

For what it's worth. I definitely agree with you that there is an ethics question here that is unresolved in online poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't get it -- you are saying the person who bought into the tourney and then decided not to play it is doing something unethical? Why? What is the rationale of doubling the person's ante?

I agree that it does give a pretty big advantage to the person on the immediate right of the sitting-out player, who effectively will get the button twice every round.

Also at the lowest limits ($5 etc.) where the money isn't the point and it's more about the challenge, I agree it can be inconsiderate to sit out. But there's a big difference between "inconsiderate" and "as unethical as it gets". At higher limits, I would not even classify it as inconsiderate.

[M.B.E.]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
It is down to 4 and am ammassing a sizeable chip lead and I don't think I did it intentionally but I think I "helped" the other 2 guys playing there cards get into the money.

[/ QUOTE ]
Aside from the ethical issue, this just isn't very smart. Wouldn't you prefer to have the "dead" opponent with you when you're in the top three? That would greatly increase your chance of finishing first or second.

[t_perkin]

I don't see how you can possibly see this as unethical.

Niether can I see how this is anything other than to your advantage - (You mean you would rather he *didn't* fold those rockets!?)

Yeah sure it distorts the table but that is part of the game adn no different from the distortion of being in front of a super aggressive player, and in the long run you are just as likely to be sat in front of him as anyone else.

Tim

[Al_Capone_Junior]

If they want to sit out while connected, rob them of their blinds left and right. I think some do this expecting the remaining players to eliminate each other before they are blinded out, thus allowing them to make the money without having to do anything. Steal them blinds.

al

[DrPhysic]

No I wasn't kidding, but you guys are right. It certainly is not illegal, all you are obligated to do is post the blinds. I’ll grant you the fact that inconsiderate may be a better adjective than unethical.

My point was that when you are down to 3 players two of whom have built a 5000 - 6000 stack, and are actually playing the game, it certainly seems unfair at the time that the player who has the remaining 2K stack that has not played a hand in 1/2 an hour, is going to get 2nd place over you if you lose one big hand. And the case in my first post was intentional, because he went back to playing immediately after third place dropped out.

What do you do, stall until he blinds out? Not only does that amount to collusion, but not hardly in the spirit of the game either, huh?

Triplc is right, things happen. I had one game in which I had a computer glitch and lost the connection. When I got re-connected the next day, I found out from the e-mail that I had finished fourth. Really proud of my “big win”. (sarcasm, no comment required) Was it fair to the people who were in the game playing? I'm sure the guy who bubbled out in 5th wasn't crazy about it, but the case I was referring to was the intentional one.

I enjoy beating somebody by playing well. I respect the guy (or gal) who outplays me. I feel sitting out intentionally to get in the money is certainly legal, but not in the spirit of the game. Of course, there is no "spirit of the game" in poker other than "gimme da money".

Doc

[Stoneii]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, there is no "spirit of the game" in poker other than "gimme da money".

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, maybe it's agin my EV but if a guy is disconnected when i get down to heads up, I first type in my intentions then slow play and use up my clock until he gets back as it's not just gimme da money for all us recreational players. I love the game and the challenge (of course I'm not trying to make a living at it!).

Of course that's not the sitting out deliberatley issue but there are players who reciprocate this behaviour, as I've notice if I get thrown off and return to find my opponents clock running away (maybe cause he has the nuts and wants more of my money /images/graemlins/wink.gif)

[DrPhysic]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, maybe it's agin my EV but if a guy is disconnected when i get down to heads up, I first type in my intentions then slow play and use up my clock until he gets back as it's not just gimme da money for all us recreational players. I love the game and the challenge

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean you can play poker and still retain some sense of fairness, honor, even respect for the other players? Probably still have some respect for yourself, too, don't you?

IMHO "gimme da money" is NOT the only reason for playing the game.

Thank you, Stoneii. You made exactly my point.

Doc

[tw texas]

I don't see how it is any different than folding every hand, they're his chips and if he doesn't want to gamble with them, he shouldn't have to...also, you can't rule out that his internet was roasted, his power went out, emergency, etc.

I guess you can do with your chips whatever you wish, but what you did is very shady IMHO, plus, I'd much rather get heads-up with a guy sitting out than someone playing

[AleoMagus]

I think that stalling until he blinds out is not really collusion, and not against the spirit of the game either.

If you type into the chat "hey everybody - fold everything and lets take turns raising his blinds", then that's collusion (I have seen this before). This is not what is going on here though.

Consider: If you were playing in a live tourney where you were watching a player closely and realized that he only ever plays aces (or from past experience you knew he folds everything on the bubble), wouldn't taking advantage of that tightness be in the spirit of the game? It's just a good read, and if all players make that same read - then that tight player is just outclassed by the rest of the table, not being colluded against.

In the case of the player sitting out, he is not doing anything wrong but is a fool to sit out intentionally. If he wants to play nothing near the bubble, then he should manually fold and even stop to think a few seconds before he does to make it look like he might play. In this way he will not be giving you the best online tell that you could ever have - Sitting out. I fold everything. Any steal will work against me.

To suggest that taking advantage of this is unethical is tantamount to suggesting that it is unethical to modify your play because of tells or betting patterns in your opponent.

Hotrod's semi-conscious decision to help the other players is actually what is unethical and against the spirit of the game. If they can't see how foolish confrontations are with this guy blinding out, then perhaps they are worse bubble players than even the player sitting out. I'd be A-OK with watching them miss the money.

I guess what I am saying is this - I play this game for challenge and all that also, but when it's not there, it's not there. I'm not going to create challenge for myself. I think that letting your clock run down is commendable and I do this myself if I suspect a computer/other problem. After a while though, if I think buddy is just trying to survive the best way he knows how... he's just another player and like all players, I'm out to destroy him.

That's what I think, anyways.

Regards,
Brad S

(Stars actually has 'sitting out' under your name, doesn't it? On party, it gives no indication, except the insta-folding. An observant player still picks up on it quickly though.)

[DrPhysic]

Brad,

I agree with your thoughts. Yes, Stars not only clearly shows "sitting out" but makes the distinction from "disconnected". I agree with stoneii and you about running the clock to give a guy that is disconnected a chance. The concept of Honor among Theives is a pretty old one.

[ QUOTE ]
To suggest that taking advantage of this is unethical is tantamount to suggesting that it is unethical to modify your play because of tells or betting patterns in your opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't. It's the guy that is intentionally sitting out to get in the money that I don't like and I will also do my best to destroy him. He won't ever accidentally collect money in the big blind with me at the table.

Doc

[PrayingMantis]

Hi Doc,

I'm really trying, but I'm having hard time understanding what you mean.


[ QUOTE ]
It's the guy that is intentionally sitting out to get in the money that I don't like and I will also do my best to destroy him

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's "intentionally sitting out to get in the money" he's an idiot, because he's playing far from optimal game. I don't see any reason why not liking him. I like him very much. He's making a huge mistake against you, and you should be able to exploit every inch of it. You know what they say: "in poker as in poker" (in French it sounds better I guess /images/graemlins/grin.gif). It's a war.

Peace,

PrayingMantis

[mosch]

There was a player in a stars SNG I played the other day that did a similar thing. He was the chip leader, by a lot, and he just sat out and was waiting for us to guarantee him a 2nd place or better victory.

Fortunately, once it was down to three people, my other opponant also realized that the best strategy for any mediocre hand where he has a blind, is for one of us to steal his blind.

We had a few confrontations when we both had legitimate hands, but by the time the sit-out realized that we were, in large part, just stealing his blinds, he wasn't the chip leader anymore. The most amusing part was that he accused us of behaving badly, as though I should've been folding my small blind to his big blind, even though he wasn't even playing. (and no, nothing was ever stated in the chat box about blinding him off)

[PDX_David]

Several times I have seen people fold to the sitting out BB. I just cannot believe that.

To the actaul subject. If someone wants or needs to sit out that is fine, but I will be more than happy to take my fair share of his blinds while s/he does so.

Maybe it's just me though,

PDX

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I'm sorry, even if you DID chat about the purposefulness of your intentionally stealing his blinds, SCREW HIM. If he intentionally sits out while connected, F**K him. If he's truly disconnected, well bummer. But normally that's a hazard you have to deal with, the fact is that if you get DC'd, you're blinds will get stolen anyway.

al

[Stagemusic]

Your an honorable man Doc and that's a great thing. However, this is apples and oranges. You and Stone are talking about how you react when someone ELSE disconnects or walks away to be blinded off. This is all great. However, what does that have to do with the question put forth. Is walking away with a sizeable chip lead to get in the money unethical? My opinion is no. It can be a strategy to be used like blind stealing. Now, I can't seem to bring myself to do this because my competitive nature won't allow it. I always want to win the thing /images/graemlins/grin.gif . However, this does not restrict me from exploiting the move made by others.

[Schmed]

I don't understand the problem. The guy paid his money, won a bunch of chips, and sat out the rest of the way. So. Would it be any different if he just sat there and folded every hand? Well the only difference is you know he's giving his blind away for free everytime.

[Schmed]

I don't understand why this is unethical. Maybe the guy didn't want to play any more. As I said what's the difference if the guy just folded every hand.

The guy is letting you know he's sitting out.

One time I spilled a cup of coffee on my laptop right after I doubled up in like the 3rd hand and I took 2nd. Hey things happen and I got lucky that someone else protected my stack.

[Schmed]

I enjoy winning, period. As long as what I am doing is within the rules and I win then I'm happy. When I lose...well I'm not happy..... /images/graemlins/grin.gif