Rules question

[prosh]

alright guy raises .. I push all in with KK ...he exposes his hole cards JJ and I go to take down the pot ...he says what are you doing I didn't fold I said you exposing your cards is a MUCK... Am I right???
what a cheap move to try and get a read
sorry to put this post here it is really a home game question but I know the traffic is better here

[CrackerZack]

In tournaments, this is often the rule. Not sure about ring games.

[prosh]

thats what I thought and it was a tourny

[youtalkfunny]

In many tourneys, if the TD feels that the cards were exposed "in an effort to induce or reduce action" (ie, to get someone to fold, call, raise, or otherwise choose a course of action that would not have taken if he hadn't seen the cards), then a penalty may be issued.

Not necessarily the death penalty, either. He may be issued X minutes away from the table. He may be issued a warning. Or he may have his hand killed.

In your case, since you were all-in, he could not induce nor reduce your action--your action has already been completed.

If there were no other players in the pot, I'd rule that exposing these cards warrants no penalty at all.

[Edge34]

Agreed - In a tournament situation, if he were the last to act, I don't see how this could be considered a muck right away. If nothing else, from here, if you don't prematurely flip up your cowboys, he could probably still say call (then you can go ahead) or fold them faceup just for the sake of showing his JJ...of course, i'm no floorperson, so that's just the way I'd see it.

-Edge

[JoeU]

[ QUOTE ]
In many tourneys, if the TD feels that the cards were exposed "in an effort to induce or reduce action" (ie, to get someone to fold, call, raise, or otherwise choose a course of action that would not have taken if he hadn't seen the cards)

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In your case, since you were all-in, he could not induce nor reduce your action--your action has already been completed.


[/ QUOTE ]

I completely disagree. The player that exposed his hand should have his hand declared dead. This action is not meant to get the player with KK to bet, raise, or fold. Instead it is usuallly done so the player with JJ might pick up a tell to see where he is at. If the all in player had AK, he's behind and might regret his decision. He could also have TT and be way behind. Imagine the tell on your face after you are shown JJ to your TT.

In this case, the player with KK might show a tell of extreme strength. If you show your JJ and the player across from you is not phased in the least bit, wouldn't you be inclined to fold your big hand? If you have KK, do you want him to fold?

It's a cheap way to angle shoot, and his hand should be mucked. If it happens again, I'd probably give him some sort of time penalty.

Joe

[youtalkfunny]

There is no penalty for this move in a cash game. The question is, should it be disallowed in a tournament?

The only reason why a tourney should have special rules is because the outcome of any hand affects everybody in the tourney, whether they are involved in this pot or not. Collusion is the big problem that needs to be addressed.

For example, encouraging someone to call in order to increase the chances of busting the small stack who is all in SHOULD BE DISCOURAGED. It goes against the "spirit" of poker to help an opponent win a pot.

Showing a big pocket pair, in an effort to get everyone to lay down their hands, can be seen as objectionable. That is a much different example than the one you describe.

But in a heads-up pot, where the action is complete, none of these considerations come into play. The JJ and KK are not colluding against anybody. The player trying to get a tell is PLAYING POKER! He's not trying to manipulate other stacks to gain equity in the prize pool.

There should be no penalty for playing poker as well as you can.

[JoeU]

[ QUOTE ]
But in a heads-up pot, where the action is complete, none of these considerations come into play.

[/ QUOTE ]

The action was not complete. JJ still had to make a decision.


[ QUOTE ]
The player trying to get a tell is PLAYING POKER!

[/ QUOTE ]

Last time I checked, I didn't need to expose my hand to induce a tell. Poker, in case you didn't know, is played with part of your hand unexposed. There in lies the "mystery" behind the game. According to Mr Sklansky and Mr Malmuth, poker can be played perfectly when you KNOW your opponents cards. They also know that the game is not actually played this way. That is where things like strategy, pot odds, and outs come into play. Inducing a tell is part of the game, but it is NOT done by exposing your cards. That is poor poker.


[ QUOTE ]
He's not trying to manipulate other stacks to gain equity in the prize pool.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're correct, he is not trying to manipulate other stacks, he's trying to manipulate his own.

Keep in mind, this was a tournament. His actions, heads up, still effect the other players overall.

Joe

[prosh]

Thanks Joe, KK is def. favorite and now if he got a read on me which is very probable considering I wasn't expecting him to expose them and caught me off guard. I don't know how a penalty works. It comes down to it bieng a cheap dirty move.

[prosh]

Yes this was a tournament and he was last to act. I have no defense in this position when I have no action left at the table. I think a read is almost guranteed in this position. A move that varies so much from the mechanical nature of the game is very hard to be properly prepared for. I know that ways of getting a read on a person such as talking, asking questions, etc... is part of the game. I just feel exposing the cards and still bieng able to carry out your hand is an unfair way of obtaining a read.

[Slacker13]

In Doyle Brunsons book he suggests this move to get a reaction out of your opponent. I know in tourneys if you expose your cards it's a dead hand, but I have seen this done in a tourney and the dealer did not say anything and they continued to play the hand.