When PF Raising DOES Thin the Field

[Festus22]

In a moment of probably historical proportion, I found myself at some fairly tight Party tables today. EP raises were not attracting too many cold callers.

Examples: I had A-Js UTG+2. I open raised. Only LMP called. Flop was K-7-4, 2 of my suit. I bet, LMP raised. I called. Turn was a blank. I barely had the odds to call and check-folded the river when I missed my flush.

The other was A-10s UTG. I open raised and only the BB called. I again flopped a 4-flush (Q-8-6). BB checked, I bet, he called. Turn was another 8. BB bet, I had to fold lacking the proper odds to draw.

Would it have actually been better to limp these hands to encourage a few more customers (or even fold them?!) and raise the big unsuited cards in EP to thin the field? Certainly raising these hands after a few limpers is a no-brainer but this was some unusual circumstances and was wondering whether a change in SOP might be needed here.

What do you think?

[siccjay]

I'm no one but in my opinion you should have limped being UTG hoping for more callers. I guess if raised you could have 3 bet.

[Ed Miller]

It's a good thing you don't play at tight tables very often, because you play terribly heads-up.

Flopping an ace-high flush draw is license to do some serious semi-bluffing in a heads-up pot. Heads-up play is about naked aggression. You are trying to make your opponent blink before you do (granted, heads-up from a field of ten is different from starting heads-up, but it's not THAT different).

I would have 3-bet the flop in your AJ hand, and I would have raised the turn in your AT hand. If you play the "pot odds" game heads-up, you are just going to get run over. Frankly, I think there is a strong chance that your ace-high was the best hand in both of these situations. At the very least, spiking a pair with either of your cards was probably good in both (a jack MAY not have been good in the AJ hand).

Would it have actually been better to limp these hands to encourage a few more customers (or even fold them?!) and raise the big unsuited cards in EP to thin the field?

You are considering folding monster hands before the flop because you might end up heads-up against a weak hand. Hopefully you conclude that your postflop thinking is screwy, not that these hands aren't worth playing.

[me454555]

On a tight table, I like your play. These are powerful hands head up or against 2 opponents. If the table was loose, I might consider limping with them.

[Festus22]

Yes, my heads up plays blows, we don't need to go there.

You wrote "You are considering folding monster hands before the flop because you might end up heads-up against a weak hand."

I wouldn't think A-Js and A-10s are monsters against 1 or 2 opponents considering I wouldn't even think about entering the pot with A-10o and probably A-Jo in early position. And if I'm only getting called by one or two players, aren't I losing the "suitedness" advantage of these hands?

As Ts 1061109 61.97
Qc Kh 643766 37.60

As Td 1020190 59.58
Qc Kh 685691 40.04

2.5% difference doesn't seem enough to go from strong fold to strong raise. Now throw in a few more calling hands and the ratio looks better.

Again, this situation is such a rare event online so I haven't really given this too much thought until now. Do you routinely open-raise UTG with A-10s in a tight game?

[bernie]

i think you shouldve called the turn bet in the 2nd hand. it's an easy call.

b

[bernie]

i like raising the turn on hand 2 much better than calling.
this may also encourage a call on the river when you hit it and bet.

of course, considerations should be made for the opponent you're HU against. raising here also makes the hand easier to play.

but i sure as hell ain't foldin' it.

btw...if you called on the first draw, they wont necesarily put you on the draw if you raise the 2nd one. a nice change-up to try.

b

[Ed Miller]

Your preflop thinking is completely backwards... I don't even know where to start. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I wouldn't think A-Js and A-10s are monsters against 1 or 2 opponents considering I wouldn't even think about entering the pot with A-10o and probably A-Jo in early position.

So this is basically your logic. I would fold ATo in EP. ATo isn't much better than ATs if I only have one opponent. So I should fold ATs in EP?

This makes no damn sense at all. Can you see why?

As a hint, think about WHY you don't play ATo from EP.

[Festus22]

I guess I need to wait for the book but I'll give it a go.

A-10o - A hand that is good for high card value only. The ace has a chance to be dominated if I'm against a better ace or against KK, QQ, JJ, or TT. The 10 has little chance of holding up as top pair against several opponents. Very little chance to improve to a monster. So I don't want to play it early since many of my opponents have yet to act and I don't yet know anything about their hand strength.

A-10s - High card description the same but it does have a chance to improve to a monster. Makes a flush 1 in 23 times. Kind of a blend between a good high card hand and a high implied odds type of hand.

So the higher implied odds factor of the suited version is what differentiates the two. Hence my thinking that I want more opponents feeding the pot for my flush draw BUT that defeats my high card value since there will probably be more K's, Q's and J's milling around.

SO - In a tight game, A-10s is good for high card value with less value in being suited. In loose games, the opposite is true. And by playing A-10s early, I'm OK with only 1 or 2 callers with my high card value and OK against numerous callers since I'm suited. A-10o obviously doesn't have the suited value for the loose game AND the 10 is less likely to be top pair with many opponents making it very undesireable early.

Close?

BTW - Thanks for making me think about this. I don't give a crap if everything I just said is wrong because it affords me the opportunity to learn from it.

[Mike Gallo]

Festus,

Good response. You have started travelling on the correct path.

[Ed Miller]

Yes, that's the basic idea.

The problem with playing things in early position is you don't know what will happen behind you. Will you steal the blinds? Will six people call and then the big blind three-bet? You have no clue.

If every time you raised ATo from EP, you got heads-up with the blind, then you'd play it from EP! The reason you don't play ATo from EP is that so much can go wrong between you and the blinds. /images/graemlins/smile.gif With ATs, that "wrong" stuff isn't so bad... and some of what goes "wrong" for ATo is actually going right for ATs.