War With Syria!

[detox]

I may as well get the discussion thread underway for War With Syria! Three reasons for pending war with Syria:
__________________________________________________ ___________
Massive Movement of American Warplanes Takes Place in Scotland 11/05/2003 17:25
The US is probably preparing another victorious war

Several days ago, a Western website published a news message which said that the US could probably launch another short and victorious war. The message specified the place where the military operation would probably happen. Below is the text of the message:

"Since Saturday, people in the Highlands of Scotland have been witnessing large movements of US warplanes overhead. Experienced observers say the large numbers are reminiscent of those that preceded the bombing of Iraq in 1998 and military strikes on Libya in the1980's as well as the first Gulf War.

"At the weekend warplanes were flying over at a rate of roughly one every 15 minutes. As well as watching them from the ground the plane spotters have also been able to overhear pilots talking by listening to their radio frequencies.

"At this rate some 288 warplanes would have passed over Scotland in three days. It is thought that the planes have flown on route from the US over the North Pole to bases in Europe and the Mediterranean

http://english.pravda.ru/world/20/91/365...
__________________________________________________ ________________

Central Command is beefing up staff in Qatar:

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/n...

[ThaSaltCracka]

wtf are you talking about

[MattHatter]

He is alluding to the fact that Iraq is potentially the first in a long series of international wars the US is going to embark on if GW is re-elected (and maybe even if he isn't).

Iraq was a test case. Whereby it was proven that the US can attack a sovereign nation and take it over.. replace its government with one of it's choosing, and no one is going to stop them. (Yes Saddam was a bad guy, but that misses the larger picture here).

This idea is accepted on both sides of the debate amongst those in more pragmatic circles.

Here is the US plan for global domination for the summarized by the lefties:

Whats Happening? (chomsky) (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=40&ItemID=3768)

And now basically the same startegy of global domination set out in long form from some of the movers and shakers in the Bush administration:

New American Century: Strategy Forces and Resources for the New Century (http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf) (Kagan, Wolfowitz)

It seems the american public are the only ones sheltered from these facts. I watch the US news.. It's terrible.. honestly. If you could just see outside the fishbowl, you would be amazed.

Last night on "The National" they made GW look TERRIBLE.. they showed tenet saying "we never told the whitehouse there was an imminent threat" then they showed about 3 minutes of clips of the entire Bush administration saying this exact thing.. over.. and over... and over.... The have used the word 'conquor' instead of liberate(on CBC).

Matt

[ThaSaltCracka]

this is predictable BS coming from the 51st state, you guys are so nosey, you probably believe everything that your former PM told you, don't you. You get your news from the BBC don't you. eh?

[MMMMMM]

Yup, funny how the Left considers replacing dictatorships with democracies to be "imperialism."

Down with dictatorships! Up with democracy! Down with Kim Jong-il! Down with Castro! Down with the Mad Mullahs! Power to the People!

[ThaSaltCracka]

taken directly from this site:
http://english.pravda.ru/world/20/91/365...

this is a headline from one of the newsgroup forums on this website:
Iraqi Freedom: Common American GI practice in Iraq to kick punch and kill prisoners.
Now if you think the information available on this website is not biased, you would have to be /images/graemlins/wink.gif crazy. America gets slandered in foreign publications repeatedly with ridiculous accusations like these.

[MattHatter]

So the US comes in.. Hand picks Iraqs governing council.

Then thier plan for "democracy" is to install leaders (again hand picked by the US) of regional caucus' temporarily. Then eventually have some elections someday.

The purpose of the regional caucus' is to marginalize the influence of the majority (shiite) of the population would normally posess.

The US needs to marginalize the majority in the country just like Saddam did. And it will do this by standing in the way of a 1 man 1 vote pure democracy.

It says it can't have elections? why not? why do they have to rush through some obvuiously flawed 'undemocratic' way of selecting leaders when obviously the majority of PPL in the Country don't want a government hand picked by the US?
The could just wait till next summer?

The US is doing everyting it can to stop democracy in IRAQ. The shiites will not allow this though as evidenced by massive demonstrations against the proposed handover of the country to a gov't selected by the US. They will be marginalized no longer.

This is democracy.. American style /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Matt




PS: Here is why the US is in such a hurry to install a gov't with ppl it hand-picks. It needs to rewrite the Iraqi constituion before elections. (look it up this is the plan). Iraq is a socialist country and the oil/industries is a national asset. Well the US hand-picked council is selling off all the assets and resources of the country. 140 large industries are up for sale. (Iraq for sale) (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1047008,00.html) But these sales are on hold.. why? Under the Geneva conventions the occupier must abide by the constitution of the conquored country. The Iraqi constitution does not allow to sell off the national assets to private intrtests. So if they do sell em off.. with no new constitution and they dont manage to supress the majority shiites in thier rigging of the new Iraqi "quasi-democracy" then after all this great stuff gets sold.... The government will be allowed to re-nationalize the companies.. becuase they will have been illegally sold as spoils of war. Iraq Business Deals May Be Invalid, Law Experts Warn (http://www.agitprop.org.au/nowar/20031030_catan_iraq_deals_invalid.htm)

This is why the US is in a HUGE hurry to hand over control (this is hilarious cause they wanna hand over control from ppl they hand picked to MORE ppl they hand-picked.. what a laugh)

[MattHatter]

This BS is predictable.. but it didn't come from me.

Did you even read my post? I'm sure you didn't because none of the links in there are from canadians and one of the linked documents is about 80 pages long, and the fact that you replied within minutes indicates that you didn't even read it before you decided it was BS. This is what is wrong with America today.

If you even want to have this debate you gonna have to be rational and open minded.

The source of the BS in my posts include Paul Wolfowitz (umm undersecretary of defence no?) and he lays out the plan for US global hegemony pretty clearly.

Read before you decide.. quit relying on FOX and CNN.

Matt

[MattHatter]

Pravda is OBVIOUSLY slanted.

Just like CNN.

What's your point?

Matt


PS: Pravda isn't the only one making those claims. Go to some reliable international sources and you can find the same allegations.

[MattHatter]

[ QUOTE ]
this is predictable BS coming from the 51st state,

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm.... Isn't Iraq the 51st state? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Matt

[MattHatter]

[ QUOTE ]
Yup, funny how the Left considers replacing dictatorships with democracies to be "imperialism."

Down with dictatorships! Up with democracy! Down with Kim Jong-il! Down with Castro! Down with the Mad Mullahs! Power to the People!

[/ QUOTE ]


It's funny how all I ever get back are flip remarks.. with nothing in them to back up the opposing point of view. I could provide a mountain of evidence and real thought out ideas only to have it swept away with a couple meaningless phrases.

Typical of a debate on this subject.

Matt

[MMMMMM]

A pure democracy is vastly inferior to a constitutional republic. A constitution needs to be in place before elections. Also, the country is as yet still too unstable. More insurgents and terrorists need to be captured or killed, and more Iraqis need to be trained before the country can handle itself against the forces seeking to destabilize things.

It would be highly irresponsible to cut and run at this point when much more work essential work still needs to be done.

[MattHatter]

[ QUOTE ]
A pure democracy is vastly inferior to a constitutional republic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that? (anyway.. it's kind of another debate, and I think we'd do better not to have the issue clouded by getting into this one) But in a real debate you need facts.. not opinion. I think this is opinion.

[ QUOTE ]
A constitution needs to be in place before elections. Also, the country is as yet still too unstable. More insurgents and terrorists need to be captured or killed, and more Iraqis need to be trained before the country can handle itself against the forces seeking to destabilize things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Iraq has a constitution that has elections. Saddam fixed them all and threatened to kill those that oppesed etc.. brutal, brutal man. But the framework is and has ALWAYS been there for elections. And Saddam is gone now.

The fact that the constituion needs to be rewritten in order to have elections is a popular myth put forward by the current US administration. Completely untrue.

The reasons for this.. and the need to shift away from a true representative democracy are laid out is my previous post.

It has everything to do with international law and the legality of selling off the national assets of Iraq to the multinationals.. as well as marginalization of the majority, and nothing to do with elections.

Again to find these things out you need to look past CNN. Reserach it a bit yourself and you'll see.

Ther is no reason that they can't achieve stability then have elections. Cutting and runing is EXACTLY what the US trying to do by getting out ASAP. I will not use the term 'hand over power' becuase that is truely a lie. They picked both groups.. the handers and the recipients.. so the whole notion of 'hand-over' is completely illogical.

Matt

PS: and to agree with you.. the place is terribly unstable.. why not stabalize it.. what advantage is gained by doing everything in a hurry in an unstable country in a way that is unacceptable to the majority of the population? (evidenced by massive shiite protests, which were massively downplayed (read:hardly mentioned) in the US news).

[MMMMMM]

I gave the PNAC a quick read-over some time ago. An excellent plan IMO, and good for all free nations as the USA is the primary counterweight to totalitarians, despots, rogue states and terrorists the world over.

You, and the entire beautiful country of Canada, benefit immensely from our presence both in security matters and in those financial (not to mention that you don't have to spend hardly any money on defense because of our "umbrella" which protects you).

Hegemony, schmegemony. The President of Spain got it right in his most recent speech, saying that Europe ought not to seek to become a counter-weight to the power of the United States, because the power of the U.S. greatly benefits all free nations. We have common goals such as liberty, free enterprise, and human rights--and the stronger the US is, the less sway have the evil regimes, the terrorists, the totalitarians, and the despots.

[MMMMMM]

Pure democracy vs. constitutional republic is another discussion, and you managed to miss it by getting to the forum too late;-) Not your fault though;-)

And yes I do think the early timetable is too soon to leave Iraq since so much more work towards stabilization needs to be done.

[MMMMMM]

"It's funny how all I ever get back are flip remarks.. with nothing in them to back up the opposing point of view. I could provide a mountain of evidence and real thought out ideas only to have it swept away with a couple meaningless phrases.

Typical of a debate on this subject."

I'm not trying to have a debate, just a discussion. /images/graemlins/grin.gif You know I post all this stuff between poker hands online, right?

[bigpooch]

Hey, Pravda = Truth : isn't that what it means in Russian?
/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Oh, all right, they have their own agenda and have to stop
from being put in jail for putting the wrong spin on a story
or supporting the wrong political parties!

Daasveedanya! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MattHatter]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not trying to have a debate, just a discussion. /images/graemlins/grin.gif You know I post all this stuff between poker hands online, right?


[/ QUOTE ]

lol... I can't explain it but when I start i feel a need to WIN THE DEBATE. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif But it's hard to tackle these issues succinctly.

And these long answers are cutting into my game. /images/graemlins/wink.gif so I'll summarize: I'm right. And now we can end the debate. lol. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Matt

Like to see GW and Osama at the poker table.. They both have money and both need a lesson in humility. God is on MY side. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[MMMMMM]

Osama bin-Laden does not deserve to inhabit human form. Perhaps he could be served, as a ricin-laced last meal, to that cannibal who lately was in the news. A fitting end for two who would better have never been born.

When Osama knocks on that door to Paradise, he will find it is just one great big Hollywood prop. On the other side, he will meet the real monsters who will gaze upon him as they would at a mouse. Then Osama will learn the true meaning of his old and favored phrase: "Blessed terror". He will cry out to Allah, but the only answer will be the breath and the claws of the denizens of hell. Such are the wages of delusion and great inhumanity to men.

[MattHatter]

[ QUOTE ]
I gave the PNAC a quick read-over some time ago. An excellent plan IMO, and good for all free nations as the USA is the primary counterweight to totalitarians, despots, rogue states and terrorists the world over.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only problem with the plan is that it doesn't limit itself to 'rogue states' it calls for full spectrum dominance in all areas.. military and economic over ALL nations. And a plan to ensure no one.. friend or foe.. will ever be able to challenge US superiority in any way ever. And it will ensure all of this with a massive military. Which in thier opinion the US must be willing to use when it's dominance is in any way threatened.. or may even become potentially threatened.

Matt

I may seem paranoid.. but if i'm not mistaken the last country that invaded Canada was the US no? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[MMMMMM]

You're far better off with US supremacy than without it. The US makes freedom possible, else the world likely would have already succumbed to tyranny. Of course, some of the weaker and less effective countries seem to take that as a personal insult. Well they should change their socialistic ways if they want to become more effective--obviously. They bitch and moan that they aren't as strong economically but they fritter away their capital and investment base on social programs which in turn encourage lack of productivity. Their high taxes discourage productivity. It's really pretty simple. And as if there weren't enough evidence already, the European countries which have deeply slashed taxes are experiencing by far the greatest economic growth rates in Europe today, in contrast to the economies of "old Europe" which are languishing under heavy tax rates.

It's really too damn simple for the intellectual liberal elites, and that's one main reason they don't like it. But the facts speak for themselves.

[Taxman]

[ QUOTE ]
The US makes freedom possible, else the world likely would have already succumbed to tyranny.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give me a break.

[MMMMMM]

Just look at history: you would either be a Nazi, a lampshade, a Communist, or dead...if it were not for the United States.

[AtlasNNN]

Well, that's the only way they can fight back against our might. Kind of like the janitor whining about the manager's actions behind his back!

[ThaSaltCracka]

okay Matt you started it.
take a look at this quote from your homey Chomsky:
If you want to look at the timing, I think that it became quite clear that the massive propaganda for the war began in September of last year, September 2002. Before that there was a condemnation of Iraq but no effort to whip people into war fever. So we asked what else happened then September 2002. Well, two important things happened. One was the opening of the mid term congressional campaign, and the Bush´s campaign manager, Karl Rove, was very clearly explaining what should be obvious to anybody anyway: that they could not possible enter the campaign with a focus on social and economic issues. The reason is that they are carrying out policies which are quite harmful to the general population and favorable to an extremely narrow sector of corporate power and the corrupt sectors as well, and they can't face the electorate on that. As he pointed out, if we can make the primary issue national security then we will be able win because people will -you know- flock to power if they feel frightened. And that is second nature to these people; that's the way they have ran the country -right through the 1980´s- with very unpopular domestic programs but accustomed to press into the panic button -Nicaragua, Grenada, crime, one thing after another. And Rove also pointed out that something similar would be needed for the presidential election.

Now how could Chomsky possibly know this, he doesn't name any sources, he is saying his ridiculous opinion. That he would insinuate that the reasons for U.S. military action after Sept 11 were politically motivated is insulting. I don't know how more biased this interview gets but lets see.

In effect, if you look at the press today they describe soldiers as saying: "we are here for revenge - you know- because they blew up the World Trade Center, they will attack us", or something. Well, these beliefs are completely unique to the United States.....I mean: no one in the World believes anything like this.
hmmmmmm...... I dunno that sounds pretty neutral.......

lets see whats next....

In addition, we will assure that there is never any challenge to our domination because we are so overwhelmingly powerful in military force that we will simply crush any potential challenge.
is this where you got that line from.... that seems like another opinion......
I think we have pattern here, but just for you Matt I will continue to read the interview.

I'll toss this one in there this is pretty interesting
Well, you know, that caused shudders around the world, including the foreign policy elite at home which was appalled by this. I mean it is not that things like that haven't been heard in the past. Of course they had, but it had never been formulated as an official national policy . I suspect you will have to go back to Hitler to find an analogy to that.

Atilio A. Boron: According to your analysis then the question is: who is next? Because you don´t believe that they are going to stop in Iraq, wouldn't you?

Noam Chomsky: No, they already made this clear. For one thing they need something for the next presidential election.

now I was going to keep on reading but I have had enough. Now you asked us to go somewhere other than CNN, well first of all CNN sucks, anyways I checked out your little piece, wow that is some real unbiased hard hitting journalism there. Now this is the type of garbage that people in Europe, and the 51st state like to read, this is apparent because of the ridiculous statements I hear from them.

Now Matt, do you have any other factual not opinionated pieces you would like us to read?

BTW, I have read the other one before, 80 pages, it sure is boring. But they forgot to do one chapter. Its about how U.S. citizens go up to Canada and beat the [censored] out you guys in everything .

[Gamblor]

Matt is an idiot, but what's your issue with Canada?

Being an American would suck, to be honest.

[MattHatter]

I think you failed to comprehend what I was saying in my first post.

I was suggesting that most of the stuff you have now quoted here... about US dominance... is the same stuff that appears in the document by "Project for the New American Century". Ruling the world by force and the like. Maybe reread the introduction of the document as boring as you find it. I find it shocking.

My point was that the realistic types on both the FAR left and the FAR right recognise this reality. It's obvious.

How can Chomsky know what Carl Rove is thinking? Or what advice he is giving Bush? Good question. I don't know. But I do know this. The notion that Mr. Rove (Mr. Bushs Political Advisor remember) would point out to him on which issues he was strong and which issues he was weak is not a far fetched notion. It is his job after all.

The quote about the soldiers. there are a quarter million armed young men and women and over there. Do you think offcolor remarks dont occur? I mean if you want to go hunt for quotes I'm sure there are all kinds.. good and bad. People say lots of things. Especially soldiers.

Using the military to crush any challenge is what the PNAC document is all about. Just like chomskys opinion is.

Again my point was that they agree on the subject.

Matt

[MattHatter]

[ QUOTE ]
Matt is an idiot, but what's your issue with Canada?
- Gamblor

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Its about how U.S. citizens go up to Canada and beat the [censored] out you guys in everything . - crackerman

[/ QUOTE ]


Seeing as how it has devolved into personal attacks against me, and these are the best conterarguments offered so far...

I'll consider the debate won.

I won't post in this thread again.


Matt



PS: Vulgarity is an attempt by a feeble mind to express itself forcefully. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[ACPlayer]

Be warned on debate with 6M who is full of meaningless, meandering, mendaciaous, malicious, megalomaniacal mischief.

Cheers

[MMMMMM]

"Using the military to crush any challenge is what the PNAC document is all about."

Isn't that sort of the general idea? Be stronger than the bad guys...because throughout most of human history the bad guys have been stronger than the good guys. So now the communists and dictators won't be able to mount any successful challenges. Great! That's why having military presence at strategic points around the globe is such a nifty idea.

Of course, there are some who would claim that totalitarian governments "have just as much right to exist" as do elected governments, or that "they have a right to have arms too". Well...not anymore they don't, haha! So the tyrants are going to find themselves getting straightened out pretty good over the next 50 years. Freedom will spread and Iraq is only the beginning, thankfully.

And you may find all that "shocking!"...I'll tell you what's shocking: that tyranny has reigned over most of humanity throughout most of history. Now we have the power to really start changing all that and replacing totalitarianism with representative democracy, and people are shocked and scared. They aren't one-tenth as shocked or scared as they would be if they were actually living under tyranny, though. Oh no! They castigate those fighting against tyranny from the comfort of their armchairs. No surprise that the former Soviet bloc countries were the most supportive of the war to get rid of Saddam, eh? They knew what it was to live under tyranny.

So freedom will spread with a little help from freedom's friends and the big boot of the US military on occasion as needed. Be glad that there is a viable counterweight to tyranny or you would in all likelihood be living under it yourself, and be happy that those who have suffered under it for so long may soon have a chance at freedom and human dignity.

[MMMMMM]

I'll bet you don't know the meaning of half of those long words, ACPlayer /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Some day, if We so deign, We may enlighten you as to what 6M really stands for. After We figure it out, that is.

[George Rice]

Matt,

I was born and grew up here in the US. I have observed over the years that many of my fellow citizens basically think that the world revolves around this country. Why, because:


We've got the best type of political system, we've got the best type of economic system, we've got the best people, we've got the best millitary (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines!). And our veterans are the best ever. When we fight wars we only do so in the most honorable way.

Moreover, we're the best on civil rights and idividual rights. Some think our press is too liberal, but it's still the best one out there. Did you know we have the hardest workers in the world? And the brightest too. Let's not forget the great american farmer. Are you aware of how generous we are? Did you know we saved Europe, and possibly the rest of the world, from Naziism? Communism too! Too bad the rest of the world is ingrateful, especially those French and Germans. And we built up all those nations after WWII and never asked for a dime back. And the Canidians and Mexicans live off our success.

Of course we have some bad things happen. Things like slavery, killing off native americans, assasinations, crooked politicians, the government lying to us about things like agent orange and gulf war syndrome. But all of those thing happened a long long time ago and we all know better now. And our court system has it's flaws, but there is none better. And we have those with exreme political views like those Conservatives /Liberals /Communists /Right-to-Lifers /Pro-Choicers /etc. (take your pick).

And out culture can't be beat. All those great american games like baseball, football (not that soccer crap), basketball and hockey are the best sports. And US beef can't be beat (it's what's for dinner). And who makes better movies than Hollywood? And who makes better music than the US? And where do the very best poker players come from? NASCAR is the best racing league and has the best drivers too. And you can't beat the american landscape, from the mountains to the prairies, to the oceans white with foam. And how 'bout that Grand Canyon! The number one city in the world? New York, of course. And where do you find Disneyland and Las Vegas? Nowhere but right here in the good ol' US of A.

We used to make the best cars and cameras, but others copied our know-how and make some good stuff too. The same with computers and steal. But we're the guys coming up with all the good ideas. And we're the only ones who went to the moon. We invented the A-bomb and only used becaused we had to. And what's better than cell phones, the internet and cable TV? All US inventions you know. The transistor, fiber optics and Ronald Reagan too.

And where are the best collages? Right here of course. And all the best hospitals too. That's why the rest of the world comes here for school and medical care. And they come here to live too, because we're the best damn country on God's green earth. Speaking of God, everyone is free to worship Him in anyway they see fit. We even have "In God We Trust" on all of our money (the best damn currency in the world). And "one nation under God" in our Pledge of Allegiance. And God appreciates that. That's why we win every war.

God Bless America!



So now, Matt, this is what you want to argue with?

PS: I would have pointed out more but I didn't want to lay it on thick.

[MMMMMM]

Well, sounds like you got that about right, George. And it is hard to argue with all of those amazing facts, even if a few of them are questionable.

Glad there are some folks on this forum with good old common sense (instead of that cynical relativistic multiculturally equivalent socialistic nihilistic anti-spiritual nonsense which seems to be so prevalent these days).

[ThaSaltCracka]

My point was that the realistic types on both the FAR left and the FAR right recognise this reality. It's obvious.
you really captured the mass population of America with that comment. As we all know the far right and left in America are the most intelligent people in America.

Glad to see you are running away from the discussion when it looks like everyone disagrees with you, did you learn to fight from the french?

Again I will ask you for some factual articles from unbiased news publications to try to prove your point.
but I probably won't get any.

The notion that Mr. Rove (Mr. Bushs Political Advisor remember) would point out to him on which issues he was strong and which issues he was weak is not a far fetched notion. It is his job after all.

this is again astounding that you think Karl Rove would suggest to President Bush that he push an agenda of war for political gain. You are implying that the Adminisration has no regard for the lives of American soldiers. I find this even more insulting considering I have family members fighting in Afghanistan.

Canada and the rest of the world can help out the U.S. by actively pursuing terrorists in their own countries. In the mean time the U.S. will do the dirty work of actually destroying them. I hope you enjoy the security that the soldiers of the U.S. military provide you and your fellow canucks.

BTW Matt are you French Canadian? /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[ThaSaltCracka]

preach it George, the truth hurts for those who don't live in America

[bigpooch]

As a Canadian citizen, though one who tries to be as
objective as possible, you are basically correct!

We Canadians can point fingers at the problems in the U.S.,
but we often have very similar problems (or worse) and it
is true that someone living in the U.S. is more likely to
get hit by a stray bullet, or pay hundreds of thousands of
dollars for medical bills, but your post is mostly dead on!
So many of the plusses outweigh the negatives very easily!

Sure, some of the smartest people on the planet go to
university in the U.S. and then return to their home
country, but not all of them! After tasting the what life
is like in the United States, some of them stay, don't you
think? With all those universities, there is significant
medical and scientific research in the U.S. that gets
attention worldwide.

If someone has a bright idea, goes into business with a few
associates and works diligently, where on the planet except
in the good old USA could he become a billionaire? Okay,
sure there were financial scandals, but Europe isn't immune
either and we in Canada had a Bre-X scandal not too long
ago. The most liquid and biggest equity markets are in the
U.S. too, which speaks volumes about the way America
encourages business.

And by the way, money isn't everything, and as you alluded
to, what currency on this planet even has a good reminder on
every note and every coin (just in case anyone gets caught
thinking that money is everything): "In God We Trust".

It's obvious to anyone who just looks carefully that there
is so much in the U.S. that other countries can only strive
for. No country is perfect. Understandably, Americans
have much to be proud of.

Of course, American foreign policy is going to be often
scrutinized because their interests are almost everywhere!
There might be mistakes made and second guessing, but at
least the U.S. does have the conviction to act!

It's tough at the top!

[George Rice]

Oh my goodness, what have I started?

Matt, how can you not respond? Forget your promise!

[hetron]

[ QUOTE ]
Canada and the rest of the world can help out the U.S. by actively pursuing terrorists in their own countries. In the mean time the U.S. will do the dirty work of actually destroying them. I hope you enjoy the security that the soldiers of the U.S. military provide you and your fellow canucks.


[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, because as you see, the canadians have to worry about attacks from Islamic terrorists. Last time I checked, it was the twin towers that were bombed, not the Molson Center.

[hetron]

Of course you neglect to mention the whole part about the deprivatizing of the oil industry. Funny about that.

[MMMMMM]

You might want to do a little checking on reports of al-Qaeda cells in Canada. Also, as al-Qaeda have shown, they will attack anyone who does not conforn to their narrow vision of what a government or society should be (as they have lately been attacking even Saudi Arabia, the one country whose ideology most closely matches their own fanatic viewpoint). Canada is not immune to attack from fanatics, and would be well advised to step up controls and investigation within her borders of suspected hard-line Islamists. If you search reports of terrorist cells in Canada you may be surprised.

Also, as has been pointed out, Canada's economy actually receives an enormous hidden dividend because the work and cost of defending North America has fallen largely on the shoulders of the U.S.A. If the USA had not existed in the 20th century, Canada might well have ended up under Communist military domination along with most of the rest of the world.

[hetron]

Even if Al Qaeda cells do exist in Canada, they are probably most likely there because of Canada's border with the US. There hasn't been one Al Qaeda attack in Canada as far as I know.

The notion that terrorism affects ALL countries is a fallacy. If I was walking around Switzerland, or Sweden, or Denmark, the last thing I would be thinking about is Al Qaeda. Want to know what the first thing I am thinking about is when I cross the Lincoln tunnel and see the dudes with the M-16's?

[MMMMMM]

I didn't say terrorism affects all countries. That none are immune is the point, as al-Qaeda has begun attacking even those it used to regard as somewhat similar in view. France could well be attacked as could certain Scandinavian countries at some point. The fanatics have their priorities, but make no mistake: ALL who do not conform to their absolutist view are at risk to some degree and will be more so in the future.

[Gamblor]

We've got the best type of political system, we've got the best type of economic system, we've got the best people, we've got the best millitary (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines!). And our veterans are the best ever. When we fight wars we only do so in the most honorable way.

True. I don't like the way the lower classes are left behind in the dust, but there is no feasible alternative as of right now in Political theory.

Moreover, we're the best on civil rights and idividual rights. Some think our press is too liberal, but it's still the best one out there. Did you know we have the hardest workers in the world? And the brightest too.

Easy to be the brightest when you have the most $ to invest.

Let's not forget the great american farmer. Are you aware of how generous we are? Did you know we saved Europe, and possibly the rest of the world, from Naziism? Communism too! Too bad the rest of the world is ingrateful, especially those French and Germans. And we built up all those nations after WWII and never asked for a dime back. And the Canidians and Mexicans live off our success.

All true. Except "asking" for a dime back, and "implying" that a dime should be repaid are one and the same. It's easy to shell out extra money now and expect nice oil prices, and tariff reductions in the future.

Of course we have some bad things happen. Things like slavery, killing off native americans, assasinations, crooked politicians, the government lying to us about things like agent orange and gulf war syndrome. But all of those thing happened a long long time ago and we all know better now. And our court system has it's flaws, but there is none better. And we have those with exreme political views like those Conservatives /Liberals /Communists /Right-to-Lifers /Pro-Choicers /etc. (take your pick).

True. The point is that you're allowed to have whatever political view you want there. But there are also many other countries like this, so this is not why the US is better than anyone else.

And out culture can't be beat. All those great american games like baseball, football (not that soccer crap), basketball and hockey are the best sports. And US beef can't be beat (it's what's for dinner). And who makes better movies than Hollywood? And who makes better music than the US? And where do the very best poker players come from? NASCAR is the best racing league and has the best drivers too. And you can't beat the american landscape, from the mountains to the prairies, to the oceans white with foam. And how 'bout that Grand Canyon! The number one city in the world? New York, of course. And where do you find Disneyland and Las Vegas? Nowhere but right here in the good ol' US of A.


Your culture is based on the pursuit of the dollar. Nothing more. Soccer is not crap. US Beef is second only to Alberta Beef. Your music has been [censored] for 15 years, unfortunately it's all you hear so you have nothing to compare it to. But the Beatles, the Stones, Neil Young, AC/DC, U2, (and the Tragically Hip, if I do say so myself)? There's no American band that can hold a candle to these. Aerosmith has been [censored] since 1981. Enjoy Britney, Justin, All Saints, the Backstreet Boys, etc. American Music is about one thing: $. NASCAR is the most boring goddamned thing around. They drive around in circles all driving the exact same car. Formula 1 is the premier racing circuit in the world for good reason - the mechanics and designers are as important as the drivers. Your landscape is [censored] because it's boring. Your biggest landmark is a big hole in the ground. Try Switzerland, Canada esp Alberta, BC, and Ontario, even Israel has more exciting landscape, from desert to mountains, plains to seas, and it's all within a 4 hour drive from anywhere in the country. New York is indeed the best city in the world.

We used to make the best cars and cameras, but others copied our know-how and make some good stuff too. The same with computers and steal. But we're the guys coming up with all the good ideas. And we're the only ones who went to the moon. We invented the A-bomb and only used becaused we had to. And what's better than cell phones, the internet and cable TV? All US inventions you know. The transistor, fiber optics and Ronald Reagan too.


Your cars suck. I'll take any Ferrari model of the last 30 years up against your rusted out shitbox El Camino any day. "The same with Computers and steal". Sorry, the Japanese make you look like cavemen, but I will concede that you steal better than any other nation. That I'll attribute to your gun laws. The rest of this paragraph seems okay to me. Except Reagan. Idiot.

And where are the best collages? Right here of course. And all the best hospitals too. That's why the rest of the world comes here for school and medical care. And they come here to live too, because we're the best damn country on God's green earth. Speaking of God, everyone is free to worship Him in anyway they see fit. We even have "In God We Trust" on all of our money (the best damn currency in the world). And "one nation under God" in our Pledge of Allegiance. And God appreciates that. That's why we win every war.

Your education system is best in the world - if you can afford it. Unfortunately, when Princeton sent me a $55K bill for my first year's tuition, I went straight to U of Toronto to register for classes. Only cost me $5500. Canadian. If God told you to kill all the infidels, how fast do you think your freedom to worship would be strengthened? The only reason people are free to worship God in the US is because ultimately, the product of conspicuous consumption in the States leads to secular worship. Sure, we all believe in God, but I'd rather watch football Sunday, so [censored] it, I'll take my chances just being a good guy and hope for the best. The Fundamentalists are essentially wackos in America, and that is why you don't mind them, because they have no real power to influence public opinion.

Ultimately, enough of your post is close enough to correct that I'll let you have your deserved glory. Even if I never, ever would want to be an American.

God Bless America!

Allah bless America. Allahu Akbar. End the War on Terror and I'd bet my ass that'll be your kids' first words.

Y'alla. Itzba al-Yahud.

[bigpooch]

Good points and good nitpicking! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

But I would have to add:

1) Okay, you're basically right about music; on the other
hand, there have been some good American artists too:
Dylan, R.E.M., Miles Davis (if you like Jazz), Nirvana,
Beach Boys, Hendrix and Springsteen (his earlier work, of
course!). Sure, I would rather listen to the Fab Four,
Pink Floyd, U2, Led Zeppelin, Van Morrison and Radiohead.
The biggest factor is money (like everything else) and that
has little correlation with the quality of work! But the
best music stands the test of time. Maybe "Rap is crap!"

2) You're right: soccer isn't crap! The world watches the
World Cup, although the "big show" is watched worldwide too!
For team sports, there is nothing that beats NFL football:
I've watched a lot of sports when I was younger, but it's
only this and MLB that gets my attention. Why didn't any of
you mention Golf or Tennis or is that too elitist?

3) What's wrong with being an American? Is it because
Americans are targets of abuse and terror? Or is it because
they're renowned for expecting a BurgerKing, Starbucks and
7-11 everywhere they go? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Okay, you don't like their foreign policy!]

Being Canadian has its bonuses though and I don't blame you
one iota! Canada can boast about its scenery, natural
resources (that they often squander!) and good human rights
record, not to mention universal healthcare and inexpensive
higher education as you clearly mentioned in your post! But
I much prefer the West Coast to Ontario!

[Taxman]

Except for being the butt of many American jokes, there is little I wouldn't like about being Canadian. Nearly all of the advantages of being an American without being hated by the world. Sounds pretty good. I am still proud to be an American however. Shhh, don't tell anyone what I said about Canada though or I might be branded as a traitor. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[ThaSaltCracka]

But the Beatles, the Stones, Neil Young, AC/DC, U2, (and the Tragically Hip, if I do say so myself)?
uh Neil Young is American.

Let me say this the greatest band in the past 5 years, the muthaf.... OUTKAST. Now that right there is some cultural, soul, originality, pure American entertainment right there. We won't see another artist like them for 20 years.
Now onto European music, which sucks.. they can keep their eurotrash techno.

I don't feel like arguing about american pop culture, so that was my one rant.

moving on... US Beef is second only to Alberta Beef.
Alberta is where this whole North American Mad cow thing started, so I will stick with good ol american black angus, which by the way is far better, I don't even know why you think that.

NASCAR is the most boring goddamned thing around. They drive around in circles all driving the exact same car. Formula 1 is the premier racing circuit in the world for good reason - the mechanics and designers are as important as the drivers.
I agree 100%

Your landscape is [censored] because it's boring. Your biggest landmark is a big hole in the ground. Try Switzerland, Canada esp Alberta, BC, and Ontario, even Israel has more exciting landscape, from desert to mountains, plains to seas, and it's all within a 4 hour drive from anywhere in the country.

for you to say this makes it utterly apparent you have never traveled around America.
Come to the great NW and see the beauty of our terrain. Alberta is nice in the SW, the rest is well... I use your quote Your landscape is [censored] because it's boring. that right there describes the rest of Alberta.

Your cars suck.
true, however what great products do Canada, or for that matter Israel provide the world with. Something else besides guns please.

Your education system is best in the world - if you can afford it. Unfortunately, when Princeton sent me a $55K bill for my first year's tuition, I went straight to U of Toronto to register for classes. Only cost me $5500.
hmmm.. I go to a pretty good school for $2100 a year AMERICAN.


Allah bless America. Allahu Akbar. End the War on Terror and I'd bet my ass that'll be your kids' first words. I have no idea what you are talking about

it seems clearly you have a bias against America, which I find funny because you are from Israel.

[RcrdBoy]

Neil Young is Canadian.

Really.

-Mike

[ThaSaltCracka]

well he sure loves America! /images/graemlins/grin.gif
mb

[ThaSaltCracka]

Even if Al Qaeda cells do exist in Canada, they are probably most likely there because of Canada's border with the US. There hasn't been one Al Qaeda attack in Canada as far as I know.
The notion that terrorism affects ALL countries is a fallacy. If I was walking around Switzerland, or Sweden, or Denmark, the last thing I would be thinking about is Al Qaeda. Want to know what the first thing I am thinking about is when I cross the Lincoln tunnel and see the dudes with the M-16's?



I wonder how Russia, Pakistan, Malaysia, Afghanistan, Turkey, Israel, Phillipens, Kenya, Tanzania, Yemen, Saudia Arabia, think about that statement. The list goes on. Fallacy?? maybe you should think outside the box.
Terrorism is a global threat.

[Gamblor]

uh Neil Young is American.

Oh really? Neil Young (http://entertainment.msn.com/artist/?artist=100442)

true, however what great products do Canada, or for that matter Israel provide the world with. Something else besides guns please.

ICQ, Estee Lauder Cosmetics, Intel products, pretty much every piece of information that prevents a hundred more 9/11s from taking place.

Canada: Penicillin.

I go to a pretty good school for $2100 a year AMERICAN.

How did you swing that?

Allahu Akbar = Allah is great

No bias against America. Bias against obnoxious "we're #1", not knowing (or caring) that there is a world outside the US Americans. There's a difference.

[Gamblor]

3) What's wrong with being an American?

The attitude.

That influences foreign policy.

Agree with Iraq war, don't agree with its neutralist approach to Israel-Arab conflict. Not sure why they've decided to tell Israel how to solve its security problems, and not allow a sovereign nation to handle its own affairs.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I go to a pretty good school for $2100 a year AMERICAN.
How did you swing that?

Two words... Community College. The state I live in susidizes the tuition of the community colleges. The citizens of Washington pay for about 25% of each students tuition with its taxes, although I hear that may change /images/graemlins/frown.gif

uh Neil Young is American.
Oh really?
I made a mistake /images/graemlins/grin.gif score one for Gamblor /images/graemlins/grin.gif

No bias against America. Bias against obnoxious "we're #1", not knowing (or caring) that there is a world outside the US Americans. There's a difference.

This is one of the best things about being American. We have a certain amount of confidence, a sort of swagger that makes us think we can solve everything. Sometimes this causes us act irrationally, but thats how Americans are. We are very emotional and fast paced, we want to have a hand in everything, for the most part. Now I can see how this may seem obtrusive, but damn, atleast we are trying ! unlike most countries that hide behind the UN standing on their soapbox, however doing nothing because.... the UN does nothing.

Its very unfair for you or anyone outside of America to think we don't care about other countries or people. I mean have you actually heard an American say they don't care about other countries. Out of curiosity why do you think this?

[ThaSaltCracka]

Agree with Iraq war, don't agree with its neutralist approach to Israel-Arab conflict. Not sure why they've decided to tell Israel how to solve its security problems, and not allow a sovereign nation to handle its own affairs. from reading your past posts under the PA video nonsense I know your stance on this issue, BTW I agree with you.

Now that being said, doesn't the U.S. foreign policy in realtion to Terrorism seem some what similar to Israel's?

anyways the reason why America has shifted to the more neutralist view is because of the war on Terrorism. They want to build relationships with Middle Eastern governments, many of which are not friendly with Israel. If America gives the impression that they are fighting arabs, or muslims, all the while being friends with Israel, you could see a conflcit of Interest. I strongly believe the U.S. government, and this administration strongly supports the Israelis and their government, however you are not likely to hear anythign publicly.

[MMMMMM]

"Not sure why they've decided to tell Israel how to solve its security problems, and not allow a sovereign nation to handle its own affairs."

It probably has something to do with the billions in aid the US gives Israel yearly (if you were personally sponsoring someone you might insert a few conditions too). Chalk up another point reason Israel should ditch its socialist roots and implement policies and lower tax rates which will encourage more economic growth.

[MMMMMM]

"Your cars suck. I'll take any Ferrari model of the last 30 years up against your rusted out shitbox El Camino any day."

Yeah, I'll take any $80,000 car against any $1,200 car too. Wanna trade?

[Gamblor]

unlike most countries that hide behind the UN standing on their soapbox, however doing nothing because.... the UN does nothing.

Agreed. The biggest sham in history is the moral high ground claimed by Europe in avoiding any and all "disagreements" that the United States government is willing to ensure true morality prevails.

Of course, that depends on what you define as moral.

[Gamblor]

If America gives the impression that they are fighting arabs, or muslims, all the while being friends with Israel, you could see a conflcit of Interest.

I don't get why everyone racializes this conflict. This is not about Muslims or Arabs.

This is about the leaders of countries (and pseudo-governments masquerading as countries with "Observer" status) that indoctrinate their citizenship to view Jews as power-hungry monkeys who eat Arab blood while drugging Arab women and kidnapping to Israel to serve as prostitutes. At the same time, they use the "Palestinian" Arabs as pawns, refusing to grant them citizenship in their countries, instead using them as the front lines of the war on Israel.

That the leaders of all of those countries "happen" to be among the Arab States.

It's funny the way the loudest accusers are often the most guilty, isn't it?

[George Rice]

[ QUOTE ]
3) What's wrong with being an American?

The attitude.


[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, yes, yes. Our attitude sucks. I can't believe not one of you guys picked up on my post being tongue-in-cheek.

There are a lot of good if not great things about the US. But there are not so good things too. Many on my fellow citizens refuse to see the negatives, or just choose to dismiss them. Also, having a better economic and political system doesn't bestow special status on the people. People are the same all over the planet, for the most part. Hell, we all came from Africa, some of us turning left, some right, some went straight north, and some stayed behind.

[ QUOTE ]
And our veterans are the best ever. When we fight wars we only do so in the most honorable way.


[/ QUOTE ]

Our veterans are the best ever? You guys let that slip by? I think other nations can say the same with just as much justification. We only fight wars in the most honorable way? Maybe for the most part, but we have some ugly things in our past we just don't talk about or just don't know about.


[ QUOTE ]
Some think our press is too liberal, but it's still the best one out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Our press is a little left of center, and very much intimidated by the right. As for being the best, I don't know about that. It's the best press big business can provide. They are very much concerned about profits and tend to avoid issues that may bring too much heat on them.


[ QUOTE ]
Are you aware of how generous we are? Did you know we saved Europe, and possibly the rest of the world, from Naziism? Communism too! Too bad the rest of the world is ingrateful, especially those French and Germans. And we built up all those nations after WWII and never asked for a dime back. And the Canidians and Mexicans live off our success.


[/ QUOTE ]

How arrogant could I get, especially with the last line? I think many nations are tired of the US attitude and that this doesn't mean they're ingrateful.

[ QUOTE ]
Of course we have some bad things happen. Things like slavery, killing off native americans, assasinations, crooked politicians, the government lying to us about things like agent orange and gulf war syndrome. But all of those thing happened a long long time ago and we all know better now.

[/ QUOTE ]

The first two things are pretty awful and conviently dismissed as "a long time ago". Not such a long time ago. And the issue about the government lying to its citizens is fairly recent. The "we know better now" attitude held by many is just ignorance. People haven't changed that much over time and "we" are still repeating history over and over again. We just haven't discovered it yet.

[ QUOTE ]
And out culture can't be beat. All those great american games like baseball, football (not that soccer crap), basketball and hockey are the best sports. And US beef can't be beat (it's what's for dinner). And who makes better movies than Hollywood? And who makes better music than the US? And where do the very best poker players come from? NASCAR is the best racing league and has the best drivers too. And you can't beat the american landscape, from the mountains to the prairies, to the oceans white with foam. And how 'bout that Grand Canyon! The number one city in the world? New York, of course. And where do you find Disneyland and Las Vegas? Nowhere but right here in the good ol' US of A.


[/ QUOTE ]

All of this is subjective. Different nations and different cultures enjoy different aspects of their cultures. Ours are no better than anyone else's. But many of our citizens think just this way, including the soccer jab. The american landscape, while great in many places, is not better than other places in the world, at least not objectively, not withstanding the God Bless America quote. But New York is the best city in the world. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
The same with computers and steal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Should be "steel". Much of this paragrah is exagerrated. The automobile was invented by Benz, not in the US. But many in the US don't know this.


[ QUOTE ]
We invented the A-bomb and only used becaused we had to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some think we used the A-bomb to end WWII sooner. Perhaps in part. If you haven't seen the documentary "The Fog of War" it's worth a look. In it McNamara explains how we had burned most of Japan down before dropping the bomb. I think that the main reason we dropped it was to demonstrate to the Soviet Union that not only did we have it, but we were capable of using it on people. Intimidation, pure and simple.

[ QUOTE ]
we're the best damn country on God's green earth. Speaking of God, everyone is free to worship Him in anyway they see fit. We even have "In God We Trust" on all of our money (the best damn currency in the world). And "one nation under God" in our Pledge of Allegiance. And God appreciates that. That's why we win every war.

God Bless America!


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, we haven't won every war. And I doubt that God could give a hoot what's on our money. But many of us like to throw God's name around like we're the chosen nation. The ultimate in arrogance. Give me a break.

I'm surprised you otherwise sharp guys didn't pick up on my real meaning. And I thought it quite funny some of you were patting me on the back. lol. I'm considering giving Rush a call and spewing forth such nonsense and letting him praise me until I slam the door in his face. What do you think?

[MMMMMM]

Obviously you were being somewhat sarcastic in your post. It's just that most of the things you stated are largely true anyway;-)

As for this:

"How arrogant could I get, especially with the last line? I think many nations are tired of the US attitude and that this doesn't mean they're ingrateful."

The more we help them the more they tend to dislike us. Think about it. Illogical but in many ways true.

[bigpooch]

Sure, either you're ranting or testing. How about a
question like this:

Which nations on the planet would you consider residing, if
you could completely understand the native language and had
an average (or slightly above) standard of living in that
country?

I am quite sure there are just under 200 nations of the
world, but outside of Canada, I would not be able to think
of more than ten on a list of candidate nations that I could
honestly be willing to live in for more than a year.

And obviously, the US would head that list!

[ThaSaltCracka]

I will pick New Zealand, that places looks awesome.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I don't get why everyone racializes this conflict. This is not about Muslims or Arabs.

not everyone does, just the people in the Middle East

[Taxman]

Define "help"

[bigpooch]

Well, the scenery is great, but I prefer living in a city
with about a million or so people, has good libraries or
universities and has at least a few restaurants/shops that
are open almost 24/7. New Zealand's biggest cities don't
even have half a million and I have lived in small cities
before but maybe it's not so bad with cheap broadband!

By the way, what's that dog muttering in your picture? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MMMMMM]

Give them money, save their butts, etc.

[Gamblor]

and the US, if someone held a gun to my head.

Which is ironic, because it would require me to [/i]already[/i] live in the US for that condition to occure /images/graemlins/grin.gif

It's not so bad there. Just have to take 'em with a grain o' salt.

[Gamblor]

It's less that you're helping them, and more that you think they're unable to help themselves.

They're like rebellious children in the face of morally, financially, and intelligently superior parents.

[ThaSaltCracka]

By the way, what's that dog muttering in your picture?
I have no idea, its from "The Family Guy", one of the funniest shows I have seen in a long long time.

[hetron]

[ QUOTE ]

I wonder how Russia, Pakistan, Malaysia, Afghanistan, Turkey, Israel, Phillipens, Kenya, Tanzania, Yemen, Saudia Arabia, think about that statement. The list goes on. Fallacy?? maybe you should think outside the box.
Terrorism is a global threat.


[/ QUOTE ]

Let's face it. There have been attacks in other countries linked to Al Qaeda. But the main target is the US. The US is the "great Satan". That is why the US is doing the bulk of the dirty work against terrorism. Because the US have the most to lose from lax security in guarding against Al Qaeda terrorist strikes. It isn't out of the goodness of George Bush's heart. It is because of the fear that 13 pretty regular guys (I don't think any of them were Olympic athletes, or Nobel Prize winners, or even World Champion tiddlywink players for that fact) got on two planes and in a matter of a few minutes caused the loss of 3000 lives and destruction of property worth billions of dollars. And if they did it then, they can do it again.

So while you may have sporadic terror attacks in other places, everyone knows where Osama and company would most like to strike again. And we know they aren't going for small potatoes discos or car bombings. So obviously, since the US is the no. 1 target and the country with the most resources to do something about it, it is quite natural for it to take the lead in "fighting the war on terrorism". It would be kind of silly for Canada or Iceland to spend the same amount of effort in security and fighting terrorism, since they know they aren't as likely to be attacked.

[George Rice]

[ QUOTE ]
The more we help them the more they tend to dislike us. Think about it. Illogical but in many ways true.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree it's illogical. People like to be self dependent. If they require assistance they might appreciate it at first, but if that situation continues, they will come to resent it. And that's if the one doing the help does so in good faith. If it's rubbed in their faces they will resent it even more.

We have a pretty big foot print on this planet and most nations are in some way effected by the US. Many are dependent on us for security or charity. And many nations have their cultures effected by ours (one sorce of resentment by many). We need to realize that unless it's our intention is to colonize the world, other nations are entitled to their opinions and self determinations, even if they differ from ours. So when France and Germany differ with us on Iraq we shouldn't be bad mouthing them for not backing us. As an aside, I don't see the point of building a coalition to go to war if we're going whether we get their backing or not. It's disingenuous and hurts our credibility in the future--especially if our reasons are largely self serving (or viewed as such).

[MattHatter]

Iknew I said I wouldn't post in this thread again.. And I'm outta here after this /images/graemlins/tongue.gif but.....

Well put George. Very well put.


Matt

[MMMMMM]

So we just go on giving them money and defending them and accept as matter of course when they spit in our faces or call us names. After all, it's just human nature to not like depending on largesse. WELL THEN DO SOMETHING SO YOU ARE NO LONGER DEPENDENT! The immaturity of the human race is monumental.

[ThaSaltCracka]

WELL THEN DO SOMETHING SO YOU ARE NO LONGER DEPENDENT! The immaturity of the human race is monumental.
I find this funny, does anyone else?

[MMMMMM]

I have an idea. Why don't you personally give me $100 a month and I in turn will badmouth you every year. Then George can explain that it's just human nature for me to dislike being dependent. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MMMMMM]

I find it mind-boggling.

[George Rice]

I'm not suggesting that it's a good thing, just that it's reality.

Of course we should encourage other nations, as well as our own citizens to be self dependent. But with that comes less control.

Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime. Teach a man to fish and he doesn't need you anymore.

Can we live with that last sentence?