10-20 fun

[daryn]

i just played this hand but i'm wondering if it was correct or not.

i have 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

utg folds. utg+1 open raises, i am next to act and 3-bet it (?)

all fold to the button who calls. blinds fold, utg+1 calls. 3 to the flop

flop J /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

utg+1 bets out, i raise (?) button folds and utg+1 folds.


it worked out but i'm just wondering if you guys make these kinds of raises. that is pretty close to my standard play there

[Vehn]

Is this a 6 max hand?

[daryn]

yes, sorry if i wasn't clear, i just thought it would be assumed it was shorthanded

upon re-reading my message it is funny that i type "all fold to the button" when all actually refers to one person

[Nate tha' Great]

I like your play. You sure as hell can't cold call with 88 and it's too much hand to muck against a typical 6-max raiser, IMHO.

I also like your play on the flop. If you don't raise it up right there, you're going to be playing the rest of the hand pretty much in the dark.

[Vehn]

If its 6 max, UTG folds, next player raises, you are next and reraise, the button coldcalls all 3, and both blinds fold, who exactly folded in between you and the button?

No wonder they say online poker is rigged.

[daryn]

ok, so when said all fold, i mean everyone in between me and the button... which is to say no one.

[kiddo]

How many players? If full table I would normally fold. If 5 or 6 handed raising is an option (calling is worst). You can 3bet a loose raiser, someone who likes raising with A5s or 55. Never raise a tight raiser w middle pair.

Overall I think people in shorthanded game is 3betting to much with middle pair. Normally you are up against 2 overcards, making it 50/50 who wins, with you in the guessing position: Did that overcard hit him or not? And sometimes you are up against better pair, drawing for 2 outs.

I much prefer 3betting with a hand like AJ or KQ then middle pair. With theses highcard hands you normally know where you are. Either you got nothing or you got a good pair, you are ahead or behind.

3betting an early raiser w middlepair and going to the showdown every time is a sure way of losing money.

In this case: Against anyone but a very looseaggressive player I would fold flop. Calling is meaningsless, cause if you arent already behind they are drawing. (Against 1 looseaggressive player calling it down is an - not very funny - option). Normally, when you raise, you would face a flop3bet or at least 1 caller. What would you then have done on turn? Bet again with a hand that can only beat a bluff?

Your only chance is that the one betting into 2 player after facing a 3bet and a coldcall is bluffing. And you need both him and the one coldcalling3bet behind you to have noting.

You won this pot, but beeing this aggressive with middlepair is close to beeing looseaggressive, not tightaggressive.

[kiddo]

Is people in your shorthanded game normally raising with a card lower than 9? If not, then you might as well 3bet with any pair. (Against overcards 22 is nearly as good as 88).

3betting a raiser with any pair is looseaggressive.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Overall I think people in shorthanded game is 3betting to much with middle pair. Normally you are up against 2 overcards, making it 50/50 who wins, with you in the guessing position: Did that overcard hit him or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but the thing is:

1. You have position.
2. You have position.
3. Picking up the blind money gives you an overlay.
4. You have position.
5. You can usually tell whether you're against an overpair based on whether or not he caps.
6. You have position.
7. It's actually slightly better than a coin flip against overcards. 55% is different than 50% in the long run.
8. If you're up against overcards, you can often get him to fold on the flop, and you'll be ahead somewhat more often than 55% of the time as of the flop.
9. You have position.

[ QUOTE ]
And sometimes you are up against better pair, drawing for 2 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I hate when that happens. But it won't happen all that often.

I just checked out my pokertracker stats for when I open-raise from UTG+1 in 6-max games. I raise before the flop a little bit more than an average opponent ... but only a little bit more, so this should provide a good ballpark figure.

Roughly 12% of my raises from this spot were with overpairs to 88.

Roughly 5% of my raises were with underpairs to 88.

Roughly 12% of my raises were with hands where my lowest ranked card was an 8 or lower (generally Axs).

The remaining 71% were with two overcards.

So if you always 3-bet me with 88, you'd be ahead of me ...
let's see ...

55% x .71 (versus two overcards)
20% x .12 (versus overpair)
80% x .05 (versus underpair)
67% x .12 (versus one overcard, suited hand)

You'll be ahead of me about 53% of the time, even accounting for the possibility of overpairs. Not fantastic, but profitable - and hey, you've got position.

[ QUOTE ]
I much prefer 3betting with a hand like AJ or KQ then middle pair. With theses highcard hands you normally know where you are. Either you got nothing or you got a good pair, you are ahead or behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you 3-bet with AJ, the flop comes KJx rainbow, and he bets into you, do you really know where you're at?

[ QUOTE ]
3betting an early raiser w middlepair and going to the showdown every time is a sure way of losing money.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to be willing to muck a lot on the flop to make this play profitable.

[ QUOTE ]
You won this pot, but beeing this aggressive with middlepair is close to beeing looseaggressive, not tightaggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I call it being opportunistic.

[daryn]

thanks nate, good post. it had everything i wanted to say in it..

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Is people in your shorthanded game normally raising with a card lower than 9? If not, then you might as well 3bet with any pair. (Against overcards 22 is nearly as good as 88).


[/ QUOTE ]

See my analysis in the other post. People will potentially open-raise with Ax in almost any position in 6-max games, especially if its suited, as well as with underpairs to 88. There isn't a lot of difference between, say, 88 and 77 ... but by the time you get down to 55 or 44, I think that pushes a marginal situation from 3-bet to fold.

[ QUOTE ]

3betting a raiser with any pair is looseaggressive.


[/ QUOTE ]

Optimal 3-betting strategy is a *lot* different in a game where the typical opponent raises before the flop 13-15% of the time insted of 6-8% of the time, and yes, the differences between the Party 10-max and 6-max games are that dramatic.

[kiddo]

Good post!

[ QUOTE ]
You have to be willing to muck a lot on the flop to make this play profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. For your overall winrate I think this is more important then 3betting/folding marginal hands like 88.

I thought I wrote it in one of my answeres but I didnt: If you are experienced headsup raising in this spot is ok.

Actually I thought the raise was from UTG, not UTG+1 It makes a difference. In a 6handed game, at least for me, UTG+1 is ok raising Axs, UTG is not (against normal players at 5/10 party poker).

In the example in this post someone coldcalled behind our Hero. If you are in a very loose game with a few players looking at there cards thinking "I want to play" and not thinking about how many bets preflop, then you got 1 more reason to fold preflop.

[naphand]

Yes - what Daryn is saying is he cleared the field between himself and the button! That seems clear enough to me...OK in this instance that was nobody, but hell I still like the 3-bet and it adds some drama to the story, no?

Nice play /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[naphand]

Dead on. And excellent analysis in the other post.

I think this looks a non-standard play at first glance, and potentially suicidal, but I really like it, your analysis shows that it's a profitable play (providing you can let go when you're told you are behind).

I would probably make the flop raise as well, for the reasons you give.

This was a do or die play - and you sure as hell scared them guys. I wonder what they put you on? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[bigpooch]

Good post. I would also think that 77 is worth 3-betting
with as well in this situation, but that is really a closer
decision. Now with 66, it seems too good to fold, but not
good enough to raise. I suppose you can sometimes call cold
with this and 77. Any comments?

[Nate tha' Great]

I personally can't think of many cases where it would be profitable to cold call with 77 or 66 in these games, since you usually won't get enough callers behind you to get your multiway odds from flopping a set. The idea of 3-betting with 88 is to isolate the raiser with a hand that plays pretty well heads up and with position. As kiddo mentions, this becomes a dangerous play if you have some very loose players on your left who might cold call your 3-bet, and I certainly don't want to do anything to encourage that by cold calling myself.

3-betting also allows you to take control of more flops ... if you just call, the PFR might be more inclined to bet out on flops that *haven't* hit him, e.g. say he has KJ and the flop comes

A94 rainbow

Most times the PFR will bet that with a cold caller behind him, attempting to represent an ace, and you'd have to consider a fold, whereas he'd probably check-fold to a 3-bettor.