Is This a Tell?

[The Dude]

Live NL, Blinds 2-3. Folded to me on the button with a stack of $280, I raise to $10 (my standard raise when nobody has limped ahead of me) with 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB and BB call!

Flop: 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Checked to me, I bet $25 SB calls all-in, BB calls (has about $500 left, and is the my best opponent at the table).

Turn: 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif(6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif)
BB checks, I bet $75, BB calls.

River: 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif (2/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif)
BB checks, I bet $75, BB immediately and emphatically pushes his whole rack in. It catches me a bit off guard, so I think for a second. 99? 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif?

When somebody IMMEDIATELY (and I mean their chips are going in before your hand is even back from betting) raises, does this always mean a strong hand?

After I think for a couple of seconds, my brain tells me I'm nuts for even considering folding here (I'm getting better than 5-1 on my call). My gut, however, still tells me something's wrong (my instinct tells me I'm throwing away $100 here). The old gut vs. brain debate. What do you think? Result surprised me.

[gavrilo]

I would bet all-in on the river first off.
And I'm not gonna pretend to know what an opponent I've never met has when they bet this or that way.
But, you can't fold here. There's 3 hands that beat you and a whole bunch that don't. You'd have to be pretty damn sure and I mean pretty damn sure to fold to his raise.

[novamob]

Any book of tells will say that a player who acts weak is strong and a player who acts strong is weak. However, in this case I think it is irrelevant, you have to call. You said you made your "standard raise", which means this guy (your best opponent) probably put you on a pimp move and is trying to muscle you out with his 5, his over pair or his flush. Did you win?

[tewall]

I go with the "strong means weak" theory and say it's more likely to be a bluff. If he really had the nuts, he would be trying to get you in. With a strong bet, he wants you out.

If he's doing a reverse psychology thing, and he succeeds in getting all your money, more power to him.

[TylerD]

I think he's decided to stop "slowplaying" his A5.

[SpaceAce]

There's no way you fold this without an incredible read on your opponent. If he's got 99, 55 or 7h8h then it's his lucky day and he's going to get paid but your hand is going to be good here the vast majority of the time.

SpaceAce

[dogsballs]

A no-brainer call with your house, we all know that, I think.

He's also likely enough to be just putting a move on you. I wouldn't be surprised if he held a weak made hand...how about something like 44, with the 4h? Enough to keep him to the river, where he then hoped to see showdown and beat your AK; but you bet like you might have something, so his only hope is to put on a move with the paired board and 3 hearts vs the PF raiser. Try and fold out any of your overpairs.

Or am I off whack?...

Maybe he has the 55, since you didn't mention it... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[The Dude]

Dogsballs got it, he had 55 for the flopped quads! Later I saw him check-raise the river in the EXACT same way with the nut flush. He got it on the turn, but just check-called.

Although this player actually plays quite well, it seems this is a strong tell. Both times he was grabbing chips to put in the middle before he could possibly know how much his opponent was betting.

The typical "strong means weak" didn't feel right to me, simply because I didn't think this player would just shove so many chips into the middle before he knew how much I was betting. What if I was pushing all-in? Would he be throwing chips into the middle on a bluff then? Would he pull his rack out from the middle and say "fold?" Doubt it.

Even with this read, I don't see how I can fold here. There are enough hands he could feel good about that I still beat. A /images/graemlins/heart.gifx /images/graemlins/heart.gif, A5, 65.

Still, I am wondering if anyone else has seen this exact type of betting before. It just seemed odd when he did the exact same thing later in the game.

____________________________________

"Calm down, man. You're being very un-dude."

[novamob]

Now that you've disclosed his hand, I think it is hard to assess whether it is a tell or not. I mean, how often do you see someone flop the nuts? It is difficult to have a frame of reference. I wouldn't read too much into it. The guy had quads and probably had to use all his might to keep from peeing himself. It probably didn't help that the river possibly cracked his quads with the straight flush.

[dogsballs]

Both times he was grabbing chips to put in the middle before he could possibly know how much his opponent was betting


Aha! If you're sharp enough to realise that he know's he's shoving in before he knows how much you'll bet, then that would suggest a hand he's not worried about. Like you say, still enough of them that you beat in this case. But it might be useful to keep an eye on that when you're holding something that might have reason to be scared of the board. Don't tell him about his tell, whatever you do.

Risky of him to C-R the river, with the board. But I guess he wanted the lot.


Edit: My read of 55 was through exactly the reasoning stated in my post - not quite something I could ever do at the table.. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

I liked the read of 44 because I suffer from FRS*.


(* Fancy Read Syndrome)

[johnd192]

Yeah I believe Mike Caro's book of tells states that he has a good hand when a guy beats you into a pot. If he goes for his chips and looks at you then that is a bluff move. If hes already betting as you are betting you are probably behind.

[tewall]

When I have made this play (in a live game), I was bluffing.

[johnd192]

The book also goes by whether this is a reliable tell if the player is weak, average, or strong. VS. a strong player I dont think this tell was a high percentage tell as it is a tell by an actor. The best tells in the book are the unaware tells.

[Ulysses]

Pot is $250ish. You have $170 left. Why the $75 river bet?

[tewall]

That's true. The aware tells you can of course manipulate, so you try whatever you think will work against your opponent. That's why I made the move I did. I wanted the guy to fold, so I did what I thought would make him fold. If it were against a different player, I might do the same thing to make him call.

[The Dude]

Ulysses,

I realized after the hand was over (I took 15 min break to stop and evaluate my play on that and previous hands) that my river bet was a mistake. I should have pushed all-in.

This is one of those situations where I violated my own rule: bet your strong hands the same amount you would if you were bluffing. I violated that here, since I clearly would have pushed all-in if I was bluffing.

Your observation is correct, and it was the wrong amount to bet.
________________

"You want a toe? There are ways. You don't wanna know about 'em, but there are ways. Hell, I can get you a toe by 3 o'clock. Nail polish and everything."

[X-Calibre]

The only thing i can tell you is that he was hoping a flush would show and that's why he got excited and pushed.

Brunson says, "always trust your first instinct"

Imagine the look on his face if you turned over the 66 and then folded. He'd prob want security to check you for some sort of spying device /images/graemlins/laugh.gif