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View Full Version : Risk averse behavior in large field tourneys


J.R.
02-06-2004, 04:33 AM
Party 30 NL, 100-200 blinds, about 260 of original 959 left.

I have 2595, 5th largest stack at my table but a little below par. The table was aggressive in that few pots went unraised and the 2 big stacks behind me (still to act in this hand) were not shy about pushing people around and didn't seem to respect anyone else's play.


UTG + 2 with 1300 makes it 1100 to go (leaving himself 200?), folded to me 2 off the button with kings. Cutoff has 6200, sb has 7200, I have everyone else covered. Raise or smoothcall, and is this close?

AJo Go All In
02-06-2004, 05:57 AM
all-in, and i don't think so.

steeser
02-06-2004, 10:22 AM
All-in, without a second though.

whiskeytown
02-06-2004, 10:30 AM
definate repop....all-in is acceptable here as a repop - you'll probably get it heads up or you'll probably be the fav. to any one or two callers (probably all chumps with A/high - leaving themselves one out to hit ya with... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Phishy McFish
02-06-2004, 12:25 PM
I would say All-in....and would do it.


.......and the guy would have AA and was not putting EVERYTHING ("leaving himself 200") in just to represent a hand of less strength (or encourage callers or more likely raisers).

Bozeman
02-06-2004, 02:07 PM
I don't see how this addresses the post title, but I think it is close, since you might enjoy dragging one of the blinds in and you would relish an overthetop raise.

Craig

J.R.
02-06-2004, 03:04 PM
My point being if I was greatly risk averse, I would go all-in to best discourage others from comming into the pot and be content to play for the original raiser's 1300. By calling, especially with two overaggressive big stacks to act, I may induce someone to call or come over the top. What I'm hoping for is some insight into how risk averse I should be here. (I know a precise calculation is speculative at best, but I am looking more for theoretical ideas to weigh when considering whether to maximize EV or chance of survival).

With 200 or so players to go until the money, should I re-raise to shut others out and be content to contest a heads up pot against the original raiser for a little over half of my stack as a likely big favorite, or is calling in an effort top induse someone else to enter the pot with me worth the risk?

I didn't think my opponents were perceptive enough of my relative tightness to be alarmed by a "suspicious" call by a tight player of decent sized raise (this is Party), especially the 2 over-aggressive big stacks, and was equally sure a re-raise all-in here would discourage most other hands from comming in. I have the second best starting hand and a ways to go until he money, so should I try to maximize my hand's EV and encourage others to play (which increases my risk by reducing the percentage of times I will take this down)?

In general I like to employ some Roosevelt Diplomacy and carry a big stack to push around my opponents. If I raise all-in, get it heads up and my kings hold up I have approximately a 4K stack, but if somebody else joins the pot and my kings hold up I can become one of the chip leaders at my table.

So my question involves whether I should be willing to accept a higher risk/higher EV strategy or should I maximize my chance of taking this pot down and concurrently minimize my chance of going bust on this hand? Survival is always a prominent tournament consideration, but in large multis, playing too conservatively may often be antithetical to survival since you need to pick up some ships to outlast the sheer number of opponents (as opposed to multis with smaller fields).

With AA I would call here (unless I thought an all-in would be liekly to get action as well) but with kings, is it worth it to draw a big ace or other hand into this pot as my Kings are a more vulnerable holding than Aces. I know my Kings are likely to be a big favorite, but what factors should I consider in estimating the appropriate level of risk aversion?

Bozeman
02-06-2004, 07:26 PM
I would like to shut out hands that have an ace, unless it is quite likely that the raiser has an ace. Also, if blinds are very aggressive, I call hoping for a reraise.

As for risk averse, I don't think you should be very risk averse here, however Ax has a good enough chance against you that I would prefer they fold, if the raiser doesn't have one.

In general, a good player should always be somewhat risk averse, but this situation is not very different from early in the tourney, where you are as risk tolerant as at any time.

Craig

ThaSaltCracka
02-06-2004, 08:18 PM
force the intial raiser all in with a re-raise, it should isolate you against him, with you hopefully knocking him out /images/graemlins/grin.gif

DrPhysic
02-06-2004, 08:26 PM
Bozeman will correct me on this if I'm wrong, but I don't think so. As I remember, he is our mathematician.

You will have 2, 3, or 4 players in the hand. 4 is the worst case. From SS, pp578 "Holdem, Absence of aces: Probability that no player has an ace (including yourself) expressed in pct" with 4 players 50.14%. Therefore 49.86% probability that one or more players of 4 does have an ace (or more than one). (18.1% that one player has an ace out of 2 players. Clearly the more players the higher the pct that one or more will have an ace).

If one player has an ace, there are 3 left. Therefore, on an all in bet, full board gets dealt, 5 chances to see 3 aces = 15 in about 45, or 1 in 3. Actually:

1-((47-3)/47)*((46-3)/46)*((45-3)/45)*((44-3)/44)*((43-3)/43) =

1-(44*43*42*41*40/47*46*45*44*43) =

1-.708 =

29% chance of an A on board.

So, (here is where I'm not dead sure of my stats course 40 years ago), 49.8% chance of an ace in somebodys hand (including yours & you ain't got one) x a 29% chance of seeing an A on the board = about a 14% chance that you are going to get whupped by 2 aces.

The above does not take into account the probablilty of somebody catching trips, a straight, a flush, or bigger, but those are fairly small probabilities even with 7 cards.

You have about a 1 in 7 chance of getting busted by 2 aces, if both of the hands behind you come in. And a lot better if they don't. Add in the probablility of someone getting trips or better and you are still (best guess) at least a 5-1 shot to win the hand if both players behind you come in. Better odds if one or both stay out.

PUSH!

Doc

Bozeman: Please correct if I'm clear out in left field.

Bozeman
02-07-2004, 05:32 PM
I was curious about the math involved here, so I decided to examine it.

Dr.'s analysis doesn't seem to be right, since a) it seems to assume you will always win when you face no aces b) it seems to ignore that how much you win depends on whether someone comes in behind you c) he seems to be thinking that the other option is fold. Also, you should use your knowledge that you have no ace in calculating the odds you face one.

First, the hands that O1 (UTG+2) has are not random, and even if you flatcall the hands the blinds will call with are not random.

Second, the value of tournament chips will decrease as you get more, but this far from the big money, the amount is small. I estimate 2xStack => 1.95x$ and 3xS=> 2.85x$.

The problem asked is (approximately) coldcalling with 2xO1's allin stack. Both blinds have you covered. First, I will try the simpler problem: if you had less than or equal to O1's stack, do you want O2 to call or fold?

To simplify the math, I will start with chip EV (CEV), and use calling and losing as the baseline (0 CEV point).

The problem is amenable to some approximations: against a hand with an ace, you win about 69%(67-72%); against a hand with no ace, you win ~78-86%, let's estimate 82%.

If you face 2 Ax hands, you will win, interestingly, about the same as against one: 68% (only having 2 ace outs cancels with the greater flush, straight, trip possibilities in two hands).

For the other two situations (two hands without aces, and one with one without), the chances of each one beating you are almost independent, so we can estimate them by .82*.82=67% of winning and .82*.69=57% (these results match nicely with simulations, biggest errors come from not knowing exactly what range of hands these players would have).

So, for
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
O1 O2 Pvs1 Pvs1&amp;2 CEV1 CEV2 ~$EV1 ~$EV2
Ax Ax .69 .68 .69*2=1.38 .68*3=2.04 1.35 .68*2.85=1.94
xx xx .82 .67 .82*2=1.64 .67*3=2.01 1.60 1.91
Ax xx .69 .57 1.38 .57*3=1.71 1.35 1.62
xx Ax .82 .57 1.64 1.71 1.60 1.62
</pre><hr />
Everything is +EV, except possibly the last situation: +CEV, but neutral $EV

Obviously by CEV, you always want a call. Even if my $EV estimates are off, there is only one situation that may be questionable, and the others much more than make up for it.

Unfortunately, that only evaluated the utility to you of someone else's decision.

For the problem at hand, we have the added complication that your stack is 2xO1, so there is more action to occur. Worst case (A) is that O2 will never put in any more money when he is behind, best case (B) is that he will always call the rest of your stack. I'll just solve case B because it is easier and more likely (O2 is getting better than 4:1 to call you on the flop). The difficulty here is estimating the chance you will win the side pot. If the chances of each of your opps beating you are independent, this will be P(1wins)*P(you/O2), but since you lost to O1, the chances of you losing to O2 are greater especially in the case of Ax Ax, so I ave adjusted these numbers down. Fortunately errors propogating from here are smaller since this only gives you a 2xO1 stack, while scooping gives you 5xO2 (blinds have been ignored).
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
O1 O2 Pvs1&amp;2 P1/u/2 CEVNC CEVC ~$EV ~$EVC
Ax Ax .68 .07 2.38 3.54 2.37 3.37
xx xx .67 .15 2.64 3.65 2.62 3.48
Ax xx .57 .25 2.38 3.35 2.37 3.20
xx Ax .57 .12 2.64 3.09 2.62 2.95
</pre><hr />
Ugh, that was tougher and less precise than I imagined. Basically, unless you are very likely to be outplayed postflop by the blinds, the blinds are very large, the blinds will almost never call or raise, the blinds are more likely to call if you raise, or you are much closer to the money, flatcalling is the better play, and it is not very close. My earlier perception of it depending strongly on amount and location of aces was incorrect. Probably would be somewhat useful to look at case A, but it isn't easy.

Craig

DrPhysic
02-07-2004, 07:13 PM
Craig,
Very interesting analysis.

I only assumed that the probability of being beaten by larger hands than aces was a significantly smaller one. I was thinking solely in terms of call or raise based on the simple probability of winning the hand with KK vs the possible number of hands you could be facing. It absolutely did ignore the relevance of how much you win.

Your analysis of +EV based on chip value and stack size did not occur to me, however, I like the approach. Learn something every day, especially around here.

Thank you, that's why I asked.

Doc

M.B.E.
02-07-2004, 10:04 PM
Excellent reasoning, Bozeman. Most players (including many good ones) would move all-in in the situation posed, but you are correct that smoothcalling is the correct play.

Now the question is, does it change things if one or two of the players yet to act will notice your "strange" play and put you on KK or AA with a high degree of certainty. Probably not. A player with a smaller pocket pair is only getting about 4:1 implied odds, not nearly enough to flop a set. A player with AJ, for example, would be getting correct implied odds to call (after you smoothcall) if he knew you had KK and the first raiser had QQ (for example), but considering the possibility you have AA combined with the possibility that you have KK but the first raiser has AK or AQ, would still have to fold.