Sweating a friend - 2/4 at the Taj - The intangibles we all wish we ha

[James282]

So I was playing hold 'em at the Taj because my buddy really wanted to go to AC like he used to when he was younger. So we drove down and after he lost a couple bucks playing blackjack he saunters into the poker room. He gets into a 2/4 game relatively quickly, and after I get some kings cracked I decide I am going to watch him for a bit. He was very nervous to play poker because he is very conservative with his money and basically only knows the rules. I had given him advice on simply how to be tight and he seemed to take it to heart. He won a huge pot with an unimproved QQ after he snapped off some guy who was jamming a nut flush draw and bet a scare card king on the river.

The very next hand he gets dealt TT 3 off the button. He flashes it to me and I make no reaction. There is a raise and 2 cold-calls and he reraises. An overweight man says, "I am going to cap it because I know this guy is going to anyway and I might as well put both bets in now," and the gentleman in question squints and laughs, and affirms the man's suggestion and throws in the maximum number of bets. It gets called in 3 other spots and my friend calls. I am feeling nervous for him, I really want him to win this pot.

Flop comes Td7d7c. My friend does a jig in his brain and I try to stay seated. The flop is capped and everyone still wants action.

Turn comes 8d. Now it's checked to him and he bets, and two people call. River is the 6d. The first guy bets, the next guy now raises. My friend thinks and thinks and FOLDS!@??!??!??!?!? I now get out of my seat as a knee-jerk reaction...My friend stands up and whispers, "He has the nine." And right when I want to tell him it doesn't matter the betting stops and the second player turns over the nine of diamonds. My friend turned over a big stupid grin and I went back to my table. In his first ever poker session, only knowing he should play tight, he made 20 big bets in 5 hours...I didn't wind up tooo stuck.
-James

[Trix]

Nice fold, did he see the other guys cards?

[ElSapo]

Good story, but I think it's a bad fold.

[Mike Gallo]

Nice fold, did he see the other guys cards?

Thats a horrible fold.

[dirty_dan]

Horrendous fold. I hope you explained to your friend why it was so bad instead of encouraging the behavior.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]

Horrendous fold. I hope you explained to your friend why it was so bad instead of encouraging the behavior.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's pretty foolish to say it's a "horrendous fold" if he saved himself 4 big bets on what really was a perfect read. Sometimes the lightbulb goes off, and sometimes it doesn't. I did tell him that I never would have folded basically ever, but he told me that the only other time the guy raised was when he had four of a kind, so maybe there is more to this fold than just an amateur seeing monsters under the bed. There's something interesting about how playing scared money and not overanalyzing(the pot is too big! there is only 1 card that beats me! What other hands could he be reraising, what does he think I have??) can effect a person's play. OTOH, I don't think I would ever be able to read a person so accurately as to make this fold. Simply saying, "Terrible fold." is ignoring, well, how to play poker. MG, your post says that people let their cards play them...in this instance almost every player would at least call and very likely reraise...and almost every player would be pissed when their flopped full house got beat by a runner-runner straight flush. Instead, he left the hand feeling happy because he made a good read and he saved himself 16 bucks(which means a lot to him!). This is an incredible fold, saying anything else violates the fundamental theory of poker.
-James

[ElSapo]

This is an incredible fold,

If he never made another fold like this in the rest of his playing of limit hold'em, I think he'd be fine.

Yeah, I know, he made a read and it saved him some bets. But the times he wins will be far outweighed by the times he's behind.

I'm happy he saved some bets. But I'm happier you told him that you'd never have folded it. That second part will help his play in the long term far more than the first.

[dirty_dan]

Your friend is only behind a 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif or 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gif. With that board there are plenty of hands that would like the river enough to raise. Folding the 3rd nut hand on that board with a pot that big can't be right he sees the 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif or 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gif ahead of time.


EDIT: Sorry he also loses to 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Ulysses]

You should have your friend read the Fur Coat Dilemma (http://slicer.headsupclub.com:3455/16/31).

[dirty_dan]

Thanks! I had forgotten all about that and rereading it brightened this grey, rainy NYC day.

[Mike Gallo]

MG, your post says that people let their cards play them...in this instance almost every player would at least call and very likely reraise...and almost every player would be pissed when their flopped full house got beat by a runner-runner straight flush. Instead, he left the hand feeling happy because he made a good read and he saved himself 16 bucks(which means a lot to him!). This is an incredible fold, saying anything else violates the fundamental theory of poker.

I don't know if you wrote this tongue in cheek, or you wrote this in earnest. If you wrote this in earnest, well thats your perogative. I do not think I could ever make that fold without seeing my opponents cards.

[Lottery Larry]

Is this a horrible fold because you can't be 100% sure that he holds the 9d?

seems to me in this situation since he was right that it was a good fold- maybe better to call it a good read? or can't you do that either?

[Mike Gallo]

Is this a horrible fold because you can't be 100% sure that he holds the 9d?

In my opinion yes.