Advice on proving/nailing the cheat (warning:long)

[rootsmusic]

The Setting:
Weekly home game tourney, $40 buy-in, T1000 to start, 20 minute rounds. Typical attendance is 15-27 players, many the same, occasional friends of friends. Skill level is above average, say only 20% weaker players, 10% very tough, the rest falling within the large grey area of competent. Everyone fancies themselves an enthusiast. 1st place makes approx. 50% of total pool, 2nd and 3rd make proportionally decent share, 4th is paid, 5th gets buy-in back (This is assuming at least 18, otherwise only 4 are paid). Many of the same players are consistent money finishers including myself, having won it 3 times and finishing in money maybe 60% of the time. This is over a time frame of about 8 months. Another player, who has finished 1st approx. 50% of the time, has recently drawn mine and other players' attention.

The Revelation:
This guy, who we'll call Brian, wins this thing with uncanny frequency. At first, I had not had the opportunity to see him in action too much since we coincidentally seemed to be at different tables. I assumed he was just an excellent player. Then, after playing against him for extended periods, including a long heads up showdown for 1st place where I was outchipped 4 to 1 going in and wound up winning, I got to observe his play and saw him to be more in the tight-conservative mold. Frankly, in that matchup he played poorly. Note that a third person was dealing. Never seen him put a play on anyone; never seen him bluff; have seen him make questionable calls then fold on river with Ax vs an obvious AK; when he bets big he has a big hand; never seen one of his big hands get cracked.
However I have seen, at least two times per tourney, him have a big hand and an opponent have another big hand, and Brian takes the opponent out. Specifically, set over set seems to happen at least once a tourney, no exaggeration. He has ALWAYS been on the upside of these confrontations. One time it was his quad A's beating an opponent's quad K's, both holding the pocket pair. What I have just realized is that most every time this happens, he is on the button.
I set myself to thinking, and conferring with others from the game who have also noticed this. In contrast with the other good players who win many of their big pots without a showdown in the middle rounds (pushing in upon sensing weakness; aka making a good play), Brian seems to win by having excellent cards. In fact, no one can remember him winning a substantial pot by any other method, and of course, usually there has been a very nice 2nd best hand to give away his stack. In fact his play in and of itself is not that strong from what I have been able to see; he simply has the better hand and wins. Again, almost all examples of this that I and others can recall occur with him DEALING. Otherwise he is mostly folding or playing tight-weak.

The Question:
Is there any way to look out for and spot a potential card manipulator? What would I look for, supposing he is dealing off the bottom, or dealing the second card off the deck? A couple players pointed out to me that he always shuffles the deck under the table, or offers to shuffle for others, saying "This deck is shuffled and ready to go." Could he be messing around? Dealing funny? Dropping cards in his lap? More importantly, how do we go about watching for it, and how to bring it up. Obviously if you catch him with cards in his lap, he's busted and banned. But what do you do if you see him deal the second card, or off the bottom. Nobody in this game is really thinking about cheaters...for most it's inconceivable, as it was for me. But this guy is just not that good, and the way he builds his stack is not through superior play, but by calling other people's excellent hands with his better hand when he deals. I mean, even if Phil Ivey played this game every week, he would not win it 50% of the time over a year, right? Some luck is required..and I'm not buying that Brian's luck is that good.

Thanks for all comments.

[symphonic]

No need to catch him cheating, if you and the other guys truly believes he is a cheater, then ask/tell him not to show up anymore for the tournaments.

[JayKon]

Rule #1 any card off the table is dead! This would include the deck when dealing. Also, a very old rule from player dealt lowball/draw days is that the person cutting the cards (you do have the person to the dealers right cut?) to put a riffel on them.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
A couple players pointed out to me that he always shuffles the deck under the table, or offers to shuffle for others, saying "This deck is shuffled and ready to go." Could he be messing around?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you already suspect he may be cheating, this is a huge question mark. Theres no reason he should be taking the deck off the table to shuffle. Also make sure to have people cutting the deck if you don't already.

If you don't want to confront him directly about it quite yet, then make sure you start cutting and making him shuffle where everyone can see what he is up to. Lets see if his "lucky streak" can continue in the face of a little more observation.

[rootsmusic]

We do cut the deck before dealing, and usually it is the person to the dealer's right, but sometimes it's just a random person at the table.
In another game I played in, they had the person to the dealer's left shuffle, the person to his right cut, and the dealer simply deal..nothing more. I think that might be a good rule to implement.
But I am also wondering if there is any way to spot the cheating when it is happening. What can I look for, or is it too hard to discern if he is good with the cards? If I see him deal from say the bottom of the deck, how best to bring it up without going directly to blows (which might be my first inclination)?
Has anyone had to deal with a similar situation?

thanks again

[Lottery Larry]

In my home game, the previous dealer- now one to the right of the button- shuffles the deck while the current dealer is using another deck. once shuffled the cards are passed to the new dealer- currently in the small blind- who cuts them and deals. that could solve your problem

Make sure to count down the decks every once in a while as well.

No one should EVER be allowed to take the deck off of the table, nor gather his own cards that he will be dealing.

as for catching it there are books out there on cheating- they may have detection methods that you can use.

[slamdunkpro]

[ QUOTE ]
A couple players pointed out to me that he always shuffles the deck under the table,

[/ QUOTE ]

BIG red light here - the deck should never leave the table. Second - do you use a deck shield (cut card)? If not, Start.

Third - I agree with Symphonic (sp?) if you're that sure he's a cheat, just boot him.

[JTrout]

[ QUOTE ]
Third - I agree with Symphonic (sp?) if you're that sure he's a cheat, just boot him.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, have a big, $1,000 buy -in tourney. Get his money, catch him in the act, show him the door!

[baggins]

best idea yet!

[kiemo]

Why would anybody allow someone to shuffle the deck under the table?

This makes no sense to me



BTW love the beardie picture slamdunkpro!!

[AliasMrJones]

Given your description, I think it is unlikely that he is cheating. Having said that, It seems hard to believe that anyone would think it is OK to shuffle UNDER the table and that any other players wouldn't make said person stop doing that immediately.

I manipulate cards for card tricks and it would be difficult to set up set vs. set or quads vs. quads during the heat of the moment. You'd have to get the proper cards together, then either spread them out every X cards (where X is the number of players) or put them at the top or bottom of the deck and second/bottom deal at the appropriate time. Not impossible, and I've seen people who can do this, but it requires a LOT of practice and is very difficult to do.
When you're under the gun so to speak dealing with everyone watching, it is doubly difficult. Most magic slights happen when you've distracted people so they are NOT looking.

Also, you'd have to set up the flop/turn/river cards ahead of time as I can't see a second/bottom deal working when you are taking 3 cards off the top for the flop. Again, it would take time to set this up and with people watching I just don't see it working very often. Sometimes, yes, but you've got people watching from all different angles and usually watching you closely when you're dealing.

Now, all this assumes you've got the deck set up the way you want. If someone else cuts and you are forced to start dealing right away (i.e. you can't keep cards in your lap and add them to the deck after the cut or palm cards in your hand and add them to the deck after the cut, etc.) There is no way to pull off a set over set or quads over quads type arrangment. You need your set up somewhere in the deck where you know where it is. If he is allowed to cut the deck after the official cut, then he could complete the cut keeping track of where the cut was, cut one more time back to the original set up and continue on as normal.

If a real cut is happening and he can't do anything to the deck before he starts actually dealing then again the only thing I can see that could go on would be peak at top or bottom cards and then second/bottom deal it to a person of his choosing and he'd have to be REALLY good at second/bottom dealing to pull this off. Dealing out a certain 2-card hand or manipulating the flop would be impossible because he couldn't know where in the deck the cards he wants are. His shennanigans would be limited to a single card not of his choosing being given to a player of his choosing. A cut card would keep others from peaking, but wouldn't keep the dealer from peaking the bottom or top card. It is easy to slide one card over just enough to catch the corner and peak the bottom/top card.

All the card tricks where you see someone deal out a royal flush or 4 aces or that kind of thing are set up in advance. You just can't do that sort of thing in the heat of dealing. In the home games I play in we use 2 decks and one person shuffles and another cuts while the dealer just deals. I'd suggest you start doing this and then just watch the player carefully from the time the cut happens to the time he deals out the cards.

[StevieG]

[ QUOTE ]
I manipulate cards for card tricks and it would be difficult to set up set vs. set or quads vs. quads during the heat of the moment. You'd have to get the proper cards together, then either spread them out every X cards (where X is the number of players) or put them at the top or bottom of the deck and second/bottom deal at the appropriate time. Not impossible, and I've seen people who can do this, but it requires a LOT of practice and is very difficult to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could he be cold decking?

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I manipulate cards for card tricks and it would be difficult to set up set vs. set or quads vs. quads during the heat of the moment. You'd have to get the proper cards together, then either spread them out every X cards (where X is the number of players) or put them at the top or bottom of the deck and second/bottom deal at the appropriate time. Not impossible, and I've seen people who can do this, but it requires a LOT of practice and is very difficult to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could he be cold decking?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know for sure what cold decking means. If it means switching in a prepared deck, I suppose it is possible, particularly when he drops the deck under the table. But, again, if a real cut is happening and he is not allowed to re-arrange or switch the deck after the cut, it would do him no good as he wouldn't know where in the deck his setup is. He could cut a corner short so he could "feel" where his setup is, but he'd really run the risk of someone finding this in the deck. And, he'd still need a way of bringing the setup to the top of bottom of the deck with a cut of some kind after the real cut has happened.

[Easy E]

I'd hate to jump the gun and throw him out, especially if he's that weak a player "normally". How would YOU feel if you were tossed, incorrectly accused?

End his shuffling practices, institute a "no dealer shuffling rule" and watch him carefully.

However, if too many people are going to be too paranoid about it, you'll have to ban him. Should be fun to explain, let us know what happened.

[Hotrod0823]

This may be an easy solution: Can't one of the knocked out players become the dealer for the rest of the tourney?

[UTG_1]

In a similar direction...

A player in the home game I frequent was suspected of peeking at the top card of the deck by doing a laid back partial slide of the top card and tilt of the head...

Only one player at the table spotted this move and confronted the player...

Based upon the suspected player's history, I actually believe that the incident was actually just a case of sloppy dealing that was misconstrued....but..

My question is, had I reason to believe that the player was peeking at the top card, what move is the player most likely perpetrating.
A) Merely gaining the knowlege of that top card
B) Checking that a manipulate deck is stacked as planned
C) Other

Any ideas would be appreciated.

[illunious]

I've done this a couple times by accident, the top card sticks to my finger after dealing and comes off the deck in a way where I could see what it was. It would provide very little advantage in holdem, where the top card is mucked.

[PuppetMaster]

[ QUOTE ]
The Setting:
Weekly home game tourney, $40 buy-in, T1000 to start, 20 minute rounds. Typical attendance is 15-27 players, many the same, occasional friends of friends. Skill level is above average, say only 20% weaker players, 10% very tough, the rest falling within the large grey area of competent. Everyone fancies themselves an enthusiast. 1st place makes approx. 50% of total pool, 2nd and 3rd make proportionally decent share, 4th is paid, 5th gets buy-in back (This is assuming at least 18, otherwise only 4 are paid). Many of the same players are consistent money finishers including myself, having won it 3 times and finishing in money maybe 60% of the time. This is over a time frame of about 8 months. Another player, who has finished 1st approx. 50% of the time, has recently drawn mine and other players' attention.

The Revelation:
This guy, who we'll call Brian, wins this thing with uncanny frequency. At first, I had not had the opportunity to see him in action too much since we coincidentally seemed to be at different tables. I assumed he was just an excellent player. Then, after playing against him for extended periods, including a long heads up showdown for 1st place where I was outchipped 4 to 1 going in and wound up winning, I got to observe his play and saw him to be more in the tight-conservative mold. Frankly, in that matchup he played poorly. Note that a third person was dealing. Never seen him put a play on anyone; never seen him bluff; have seen him make questionable calls then fold on river with Ax vs an obvious AK; when he bets big he has a big hand; never seen one of his big hands get cracked.
However I have seen, at least two times per tourney, him have a big hand and an opponent have another big hand, and Brian takes the opponent out. Specifically, set over set seems to happen at least once a tourney, no exaggeration. He has ALWAYS been on the upside of these confrontations. One time it was his quad A's beating an opponent's quad K's, both holding the pocket pair. What I have just realized is that most every time this happens, he is on the button.
I set myself to thinking, and conferring with others from the game who have also noticed this. In contrast with the other good players who win many of their big pots without a showdown in the middle rounds (pushing in upon sensing weakness; aka making a good play), Brian seems to win by having excellent cards. In fact, no one can remember him winning a substantial pot by any other method, and of course, usually there has been a very nice 2nd best hand to give away his stack. In fact his play in and of itself is not that strong from what I have been able to see; he simply has the better hand and wins. Again, almost all examples of this that I and others can recall occur with him DEALING. Otherwise he is mostly folding or playing tight-weak.

The Question:
Is there any way to look out for and spot a potential card manipulator? What would I look for, supposing he is dealing off the bottom, or dealing the second card off the deck? A couple players pointed out to me that he always shuffles the deck under the table, or offers to shuffle for others, saying "This deck is shuffled and ready to go." Could he be messing around? Dealing funny? Dropping cards in his lap? More importantly, how do we go about watching for it, and how to bring it up. Obviously if you catch him with cards in his lap, he's busted and banned. But what do you do if you see him deal the second card, or off the bottom. Nobody in this game is really thinking about cheaters...for most it's inconceivable, as it was for me. But this guy is just not that good, and the way he builds his stack is not through superior play, but by calling other people's excellent hands with his better hand when he deals. I mean, even if Phil Ivey played this game every week, he would not win it 50% of the time over a year, right? Some luck is required..and I'm not buying that Brian's luck is that good.

Thanks for all comments.


[/ QUOTE ]
If this guy was a mechanic, I think he could also play a decent game of poker.

[SlipFits]

Went to a buddy's home game, busted a dealer pulling this trick,

When he went to deal he would cull three cards together, example 3 9's and put them on the bottom of the deck. He would pinch the deck and pull the bottom card out along with the top card, giving him 2 cards in his left hand and the rest still in his right. Say there were 10 ppl sitting at the game, he would them slide 8 cards from the deck on top of the two in the left hand.

Repeat this 2 more times, you have successfully stacked the deck to give your self trip 9's.

For an added shuffling effect, hold the deck in your left hand, cut the bottom half with your right hand, then slide one card off the right half onto the left,leaving it slightly ajar, shuffle the rest of your deck above the ajar card, and then grab the bottom half below the ajar card and cut the deck yourself, this leaves the stacked deck on top,

With a little practice this can be done so fast and accurately it is hard to spot.

I insisted that the deck be given a final cut by the one next to the dealer, everyone said it was a friendly game, and they trust one another. I was the new guy in a new game, i folded everytime he dealt.

Hope this help you spot a cheat, not cheat yourselves!!

[ZManODS]

In home games use a cut card to place on the bottom of the deck. Have the person to the right of the dealer cut the deck.

This will solve all problems.

[Lottery Larry]

you should have made it obvious to them with comments out loud such as "I'm folding because I know he's getting trips again"

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
you should have made it obvious to them with comments out loud such as "I'm folding because I know he's getting trips again"

[/ QUOTE ]

Good idea, except I would of said it like "I know the DEALER is getting a monster again." Only down side, is it doesn't really "catch him in the act", only makes you look good if he goes to the showdown, and makes you look like an ass if he messed up stacking the deck/folds and isn't forced to show/etc.

Risky, and not a bad idea, but something I would save as a last resort.

[Lottery Larry]

"It would provide very little advantage in holdem, where the top card is mucked. "

I would think that knowledge of a specific card would always be an advantage, especially if it is a large card.

Also, the top card isn't mucked until down cards have been dealt. So in this case you would know half of a player's hand.

[Lottery Larry]

what ever happened with this? was there a fight?

[k000k]

I can't beleive anyone would let anyone else shuffle under the table! I've never seen that, if I did, I'd say something about that immediately... I'd also agree with making everyone cut the deck.. I play with my best friends, and none of us would be offended or think anyone's being suspicious if that was made a rule. He shouldn't mind if he's playing fairly.

[DonWaade]

[raoul_ross]

In my home games, we get the clumsiest, most honest guy to deal the whole night, give him a little bonus for it, and have a button moving around. Person at the button calls the game as well. Works for us.

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
If this guy was a mechanic, I think he could also play a decent game of poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's silly.

If he could play decent poker, HE WOULDN'T NEED TO CHEAT.

Some people can't earn, so they steal. Same thing here.

Back to the original topic:

Anyone who gambles, whether at home or at the casino, should buy and study "Gambling Scams" by Darwin Ortiz. It contains everything you need to know to spot card mechanics, phony dice, the whole nine yards. It's a fun read, too.