AJo in the SB -- Comments Please

[JoeU]

Prima site .50/1.00 Table has been typical, 4-7 players seeing the flop, rarely for 2-bets.

I am in the SB with A /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

2 EP players call, button calls, I complete, BB checks. 5 to the flop

Flop: 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I check, BB checks, both EP players check, button bets, I raise, all fold to button who calls. 2 to the turn for 3.5BB

Turn: T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif)

I bet, he calls. (5.5BB)

River: J /images/graemlins/club.gif (T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif)

I bet, he calls. Results to follow as well as what I was thinking on all streets.

Joe

[JoeU]

This was my thought process during the hand:

Preflop: I considered raising, but with the poor position, I decided to call. Also, I was getting 9-1 on the call, which isn't too bad.

Flop: Not the greatest flop in the world. I think this was where I was over aggressive. I was thinking that if I hit one of my 6 possible outs, my hand might be good. I wanted to clear out the field, giving me a better chance to steal if it came to that.

Turn: Since I've cleared the field out, and I showed strength on the flop, I should take a shot at winning right here. My image is pretty tight, and the steal might work here.

River: Think I just got rescued, so I might as well bet. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm curious to see what people think of the flop and turn play. I think I COULD raise preflop, but the decision is marginal. I also think the river is a no brainer.

Joe

[Trix]

Good call, dont raise preflop with bad position and a hand that doesnt play well in a multiway pot.
Stop beeing fancy it isnt good at that limit.
Its a 3 dollar pot that you decides to use 4 dollars trying to win, asuming that you would bet river even though you didnt hit anything. So you have to be very sure this will work to try it.

[JoeU]

[ QUOTE ]
Its a 3 dollar pot that you decides to use 4 dollars trying to win,

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I really didn't think about this until after I typed the hand out.

Joe

[brian0729]

Joe,

Preflop: I considered raising, but with the poor position, I decided to call. Also, I was getting 9-1 on the call, which isn't too bad.

No Joe, Raising big unsuited cards in multiway pot out of position is a good way to lose a lot of chips.

Flop: Not the greatest flop in the world. I think this was where I was over aggressive. I was thinking that if I hit one of my 6 possible outs, my hand might be good. I wanted to clear out the field, giving me a better chance to steal if it came to that.

I would fold this flop. You whiffed, check fold. Since you raised (which I dont think is terrible, just a little to tricky and unecessary for the level)you have to bet the turn. Were you going to bet the river if you missed?

[Trix]

Think the problem with doing such stuff is that people dont like folding at that limit and one of the two after you might have the 7 that they slowplayed.
You need very good reads for making this kind of play

[JoeU]

[ QUOTE ]
Were you going to bet the river if you missed?


[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking about it. I guess it depended on what came in the river. I think a big card like a K or Q and I go into check/fold mode. If its a brick, I might have taken a shot. But it was probably gonna be a check/fold.

Joe

[MicroBob]

i think a key here is that you sensed that you had tight table-image.
you had obviously been on the table long enough to convey an image and determine that you might have been up against a bunch of folders-when-they-dont-hit.

also, since YOU limped in pre-flop then they are thinking that you could have virtually anything. they certainly aren't putting you on over-cards since it was only a limp....followed by a post-flop check-raise.

bets from the blinds on raggedy flops tend to get a little bit more respect imo since the rest of the table figures they are more likely to have matched the board.

i think there was a very good chance that your bet on the turn would have bluffed-out your opponent and was worth a shot, even with a small pot.

i don't think i would have check-raised the flop myself, but you seemed to have a decent read of the table so it seems like a decent play to me when there's a good enough chance that the flop missed everyone.

[brian0729]

I think your exactly right. If somebody cold calls his raise or three bets all of the sudden Joe is in trouble and his play looks bad. I like the check fold on the flop out of position.

[JTG51]

There'd be no reason to bet the river if you didn't make a pair.

There are three possibilities:

1) He was on a draw and missed.
2) He was on a draw and hit.
3) He has a pair.

You beat all busted draws so betting and making him fold six high or whatever doesn't do any good, and if he made his draw you obviously don't want to bet. That leaves the times he has a pair. Once he called the turn he's usually going to call the river with a pair, so you aren't likely to get a better hand to fold.

I think a big card like a K or Q and I go into check/fold mode.

That doesn't make a lot of sense. You've got no reason to think he has a big card in his hand, right? If anything a big card should make you more likely to bet, since another overcard will make him more likley to fold. I still don't see him folding a pair often enough to make betting the river unimproved worthwhile though.

[JoeU]

I bet the river after improving, he called and folded. He never showed. I still haven't figured out how to get a hand history from the site, so I don't know what he had.

Thanks for all the responses.

Joe

[JoeU]

[ QUOTE ]
I think a big card like a K or Q and I go into check/fold mode.

That doesn't make a lot of sense. You've got no reason to think he has a big card in his hand, right? If anything a big card should make you more likely to bet, since another overcard will make him more likley to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've given this some thought. I would probably be inclined to fold here to a bet because if I showed strength on the flop and bet the turn, it could mean to him that I have a pair, or a 7. If I check the river and he bets into me with any face card in the river, I've got to think he has more of this board than I do.

[ QUOTE ]
There'd be no reason to bet the river if you didn't make a pair.

There are three possibilities:

1) He was on a draw and missed.
2) He was on a draw and hit.
3) He has a pair.


[/ QUOTE ]

I do agree that checking unimproved in the river is the best play. Since I beat only one scenario in your list, I can get away from this hand if he has sonething, and he's not going to go away if he has something. This was evident in his call on the river. The J must have been an overcard to whatever he had. He must have paird the 4 on the flop, or that is my assumption, and decided to call me down from there.

Joe