Missed value bet

[Raiser]

BB is typical Party .5/1 loose passive. Don't have a note on CO.

Party Poker 0.50/1 (10 handed)
Hero has Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif and is SB

UTG limps, EP1 limps, EP2 limps, MP1 limps, CO limps, Button folds, Hero limps, BB checks

Flop(7 SB): Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif

Hero checks, BB bets, UTG folds, EP1 folds, EP2 folds, MP1 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, BB calls, MP1 calls, CO calls

Turn(11 BB): 8/images/graemlins/club.gif

Hero bets, BB calls, MP1 folds, CO calls

River(14 BB): K/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks

Result in white: <font color="white">CO shows AQo, BB has JdTd, and MHIG. CO played the hand horribly, but I can't talk too much because I'm embarrassed about my river play here. I let the third spade scare me off a bet.</font>

[Christoferj]

i feel that i do the same thing like you many times when i have the best hand.

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

Played fine. I would have definitely called a bet on the river.

Nice river card /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Trix]

What makes you think that the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif helped them more than it helped you?
Often they will stay with as little as bottom pair, Acehigh, gutshots, backdoor flushes, you name it.
And the thing is that they will be just as scared of the flush as you were, so they might even call you with better hands. like straights...small flushes...
And since the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif and Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif and T is on the board they would have to play some really raggish hands unless its a connecter/one-gab. Loose passive as they are, they wouldnt dare raising you with a baby flush.
Well, maybe, but bet and call a raise.

[brian0729]

Bet the flop, bet the turn, bet the river.

[brian0729]

Played fine. I would have definitely called a bet on the river.

I dont like the flop c/r very much. I wouldnt want a big spade to see the turn for cheap, I most likely have the best hand and the BB or UTG may raise facing the field with two bets and help my cause.

[chesspain]

I like the flop c/r, especially with six players left to act after him. Anyone with Qx, a four-flush or an OESD will likely bet at this flop, which gives Hero the opportunity to raise to get more money into this pot and try to knock out other hands like middle/bottom pair or gutshots which could outdraw him. However, if Hero bets out, there is no guarantee that anyone will raise, and his hand will remain just as vulnerable.

Or is my thinking way off here?

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop, bet the turn, bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

With this flop from the SB with 6 to act behind, SB can check and reasonably expect someone to bet. He wants to get as much money in as possible while he's the favorite to win.

He bet the turn.

What hands that he can beat will call his river bet? What hands that he doesn't lose to will raise him?

[Trix]

"What hands that he can beat will call his river bet?"
More than you think.
What hands that he doesn´t lose to will raise him?
lower twopair,a pair of kings, weird [censored].
And some of the hands that does beat him, will sometimes call, aint it sweet ?

How do you quote anyway? seems like I wasted some time here /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[brian0729]

Hey Chess,

I think you should bet because of the reasons I said in my previous post. I really dont like the check on the flop because of two reasons one a check thru I think is bad but more importantly what do you do if the bet comes from your immediated left or close to it as it did. A check raise now ties anyone that called to the pot and doesnt knock out anyone. Hopefully someone else will comment.

[bakku]

i would also bet this flop for the same reasons brian has listed. also, with a loose passive table there is a slight chance this will get checked all the way to the turn.

and definitely bet the river, but you knew that /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Raiser]

Hey guys. Thanks for the replies. I definitely should've bet the river. As soon as I hit the check button I knew I made a weak play and a mistake.

As for the flop C/R... It definitely turned out well, but brian makes a good point. As soon as the BB bet I thought I was in trouble. Thankfully the next two players folded and I got the desired effect anyway.

To be honest, I made this play because I have decided to make the C/R a point of emphasis in my game lately. Through my first 7000 hands I C/R'd only 5 times which HAS to be too low, doesn't it? In the future I will definitely consider where I think the bet will come from before I make the play.

Thanks again.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Chess,

I really dont like the check on the flop because...more importantly what do you do if the bet comes from your immediated left or close to it as it did. A check raise now ties anyone that called to the pot and doesnt knock out anyone. Hopefully someone else will comment.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Hero is that concerned about making the pot too large, then he could always just smoothcall when the action returns to him, which leaves the situation no different than if Hero bet out and everyone called. Obviously, if Hero knew that an openbet by him would be raised by BB or EP, then Hero and this other player could "collude" to try to clear out everyone else on the flop.

[brian0729]

I do understand your points. I just think our hero got a good flop and should bet in this case and on every street. I also know that betting TP or an overpair into a field of players on every street many times is not the way to win but I think it is in this case.

I like to use C/R's for draws and for second best hands that may cause a better hand to lay down to some pressure and the occassional monster, just for affect. I dont often like to C/R my good but vulnerable hands unless Im positive a bet will come from my immediate right so that I can limit the field. C/R raising here seems to tie everybody to the river and our hero many times cursing at his screen. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ggano]

[ QUOTE ]

I like to use C/R's for draws

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, this must be a newbie questiom but why would you CR a draw?

[StellarWind]

The danger of the C/R is that you may give the whole table a free card. That's the risk you need to assess.

The argument that you should worry about the bet being on your left is mathematically wrong. The goal is to win money, not pots.

The flush and open straight draws are going to draw no matter what you do. Be happy you charged them two bets.

The gutshots and other junk draws may in fact call two bets one-by-one but fold if asked to cold call. They fold because they don't have the necessary pot odds to call two bets and therefore lose money on average. Their expected money loss is extra profit shared by the lead hand (that's you) and the premium draws.

You want the junk draws to pay two bets to draw. Tricking them into doing so is a good thing. The extra two bets you win more than compensate you for the occasional time they steal the pot.

[Ric]

One possible reason would be if there are already a lot of callers and the bet is just to your left, then you'll be getting your money's worth twice over. An example would be:

you're in SB with a flopped flush draw, BB bets, gets 3 callers back to you. If you raise here, more often than not BB and the callers will simply call your bet, giving you 4-1 on the raise you made. Since you're 2-1 on making a flush by the river, you're making money off that play. I think that's why it's a good strategy.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
One possible reason would be if there are already a lot of callers and the bet is just to your left, then you'll be getting your money's worth twice over. An example would be:

you're in SB with a flopped flush draw, BB bets, gets 3 callers back to you. If you raise here, more often than not BB and the callers will simply call your bet, giving you 4-1 on the raise you made. Since you're 2-1 on making a flush by the river, you're making money off that play. I think that's why it's a good strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. The C/R is good here because it's pretty clear you will get enough callers, whereas betting out might backfire by leaving you heads up against top pair.

But normally you should be drawing to the nuts. It can be very expensive to pick a fight with a better flush draw. A paired board is another warning sign that you should just call.

[brian0729]

OK, this must be a newbie questiom but why would you CR a draw?

For two reasons: If your on a flush draw and in a family pot you may get the chance to C/R a big field and collect a lot of extra bets when you make your flush on the turn or river. Plus you may take the pot with a follow up bet on the turn.

[toddw8]

[ QUOTE ]
The danger of the C/R is that you may give the whole table a free card. That's the risk you need to assess.

[/ QUOTE ]

I definitely agree with this. Giving a free card is the major worry here. If it were a rainbow flop, then try the check-raise every time, but with the possible flush draw you have to be careful. In this situation, with 6 left to act I think you have to take in to account the table texture and knowledge of the other players to make this decision. If you are reasonably sure that it won't get checked through, then the check-raise is good. However, if the table is very passive and the flop gets checked through often, you need to bet.

As it turned out, it looks like you made the right decision and got more money into the pot while you were most likely ahead.