More questions on Pre Flop %

[Ocho]

Ok, this seems to be a popular topic lately. And from what I'm reading, the stats can only tell you so much about pre flop play. Each hand is dependant on game texture, number of callers, etc.

However, I believe that my pre flop percentages are about 5 to 7 percent too high. But the question is... how do I cut this down? How do i figure out what not to play? I don't play UNsuited connectors less than 10, and I don't play suited connectors unless it's a multiway pot with little chance of a raise.

I think i've found one problem - I can't stop playing pocket pairs. even UTG I'll play 22. While this is something I must fix, it doesn't explain the entire 6% of my overplaying.

I know advice can't get too specific, but are there any other general recomendations?

Yes, I have pokertracker. So if there are specific stats that would be good to review, please let me know.

Thanks!
Ocho

[Mike Gallo]

Post specific hands. Get a hand history of every hand that you enter voluntarily, and analyze them.

You have to dig deeper than the numbers.

Take the time to post specific hands.

I think many of the newer players put too much emphasis on statistics and less emphasis on developing their poker skills.

[wantsumrice]

That's part of my problem, i don't know exactly what skills there are to learn!
~ivan

[Mike Gallo]

I prefer risotto,

That's part of my problem, i don't know exactly what skills there are to learn!

What do you mean by this? I find this sentence troubling.

[MarkD]

My guess is too many Aces, and too many Kings.

In most lower limit games it should be fine to play 22 UTG.

MJ is right though, stop worrying about stats and post hands that you might be questioning. Or better yet, post a range of starting hands that you play in typical positions.

[Ocho]

Ok. here's one example of a starting hand that I would have no idea what to do with. Let's say you're at a "typical" 3/6 party table with A9o in late middle position.

a)Two limp in before you... call or fold?

b)One limps in before you... call or fold?

c)You are first to act?


Here's my thinking:

a) fold.

b) fold.

c) raise. (in hopes of blind steal or getting heads up with BB who will most likely over protect against my Ace high).

now what if it was A7o?

Again, thanks for the input and advice.

Ocho

[Irishboy]

I don't play A9o in a 10 handed game unless I'm in the blinds.

[HUSKER'66]

[ QUOTE ]
I think i've found one problem - I can't stop playing pocket pairs. even UTG I'll play 22

[/ QUOTE ]

Danger, Danger Mr. Robinson! /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif( for all those Lost in Space fans) This is a major problem...since your hooked on stats let look at a few shall we?

You play 2/2 UTG against a field of 10 low limit players in the hopes of what? Flopping a set I presume because that is the only chance in hell this dog will ever make any money. Your up against odds of about 8/1 (10.8% or 8.3/1 to be exact)of flopping a set. With pocket 2's the chance of overcards on the flop is of course 100%. By playing this hand especially in early position with others yet to act (or raise) you are throwing money away.

Even more sobering is the fact that any pair in the hole 10 or under has an almost 59% chance of an overcard on the flop without the pair improving to a set or better. Doesn't make you feel very confident when your holding a hand that will miss 8 out of 9 times and the "any two will do" player holding A/x happens to hit his dirty Ace. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I am not saying do not play small pocket pairs. I'm just trying to point out to you that they have a time and place, and you need to seriously consider what that exact time and place is. I will usually play pocket pairs down to 5/5 in late position if there have been several callers all ready in the pot, and I am last to act or have a good feeling tha I will not face a raise from someone yet to act after me. The flop has to hit me hard if I am to continue post flop, or else this hand is going in the muck and I'm waiting for the next round.

Just my two cents........

[Lori]

The best start is to really rip into yourself and fold a bunch of hands that you would normally play.

Try playing what you feel is horribly tight and you will probably find you are somewhere in the right ball park.

You are not throwing much away by folding and, especially if you are a newer player, you are probably throwing away quite a lot by calling.

Suited connectors are not the easiest of hands for a learner to play after the flop, a lot of the EV is contained in skillful play.
Stuff most of them in the muck, along with unsuited JT and JQ and, in earlier positions, some smaller pairs.

Assuming you are a losing player, you are gaining EV, even if you are playing too tight preflop, simply by being at the table and learning.

It is very difficult to play too tight preflop, it is very easy to play too loose.

When you have found a %age that you feel comfortable with, you can then gradually re-introduce some of the more marginal plays into your game.
For now play big cards and play them aggressively, almost to the point (again, for now) of if you feel you shouldn't raise with the hand, muck it.

Lori

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
How do i figure out what not to play? I don't play UNsuited connectors less than 10, and I don't play suited connectors unless it's a multiway pot with little chance of a raise

[/ QUOTE ]

I suggest you start posting hands where you played the following cards

AQo AJo ATo A9o
KQo KJo KTo K9o
QJo QTo Q9o Q8o
JTo J9o

Prepare yourself not to bet emotionally damaged when we rip you a new sphincter.

Stu

[dirty_dan]

Fold
Fold
Fold unless the players behind you have been playing tight and the blinds aren't defending enough.

Also maybe step down from 3/6 for a while. 2/4 plays much looser, so the relative difference in your average starting hands vs opponents will most likely improve even before you start tightening up.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think i've found one problem - I can't stop playing pocket pairs. even UTG I'll play 22

[/ QUOTE ]

Danger, Danger Mr. Robinson! /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif( for all those Lost in Space fans) This is a major problem...since your hooked on stats let look at a few shall we?

You play 2/2 UTG against a field of 10 low limit players in the hopes of what? Flopping a set I presume because that is the only chance in hell this dog will ever make any money. Your up against odds of about 8/1 (10.8% or 8.3/1 to be exact)of flopping a set. With pocket 2's the chance of overcards on the flop is of course 100%. By playing this hand especially in early position with others yet to act (or raise) you are throwing money away.

Even more sobering is the fact that any pair in the hole 10 or under has an almost 59% chance of an overcard on the flop without the pair improving to a set or better. Doesn't make you feel very confident when your holding a hand that will miss 8 out of 9 times and the "any two will do" player holding A/x happens to hit his dirty Ace. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I am not saying do not play small pocket pairs. I'm just trying to point out to you that they have a time and place, and you need to seriously consider what that exact time and place is. I will usually play pocket pairs down to 5/5 in late position if there have been several callers all ready in the pot, and I am last to act or have a good feeling tha I will not face a raise from someone yet to act after me. The flop has to hit me hard if I am to continue post flop, or else this hand is going in the muck and I'm waiting for the next round.

Just my two cents........



[/ QUOTE ]

You play too tight.

[mike_wzrd]

[ QUOTE ]
I will usually play pocket pairs down to 5/5 in late position if there have been several callers all ready in the pot, and I am last to act or have a good feeling tha I will not face a raise from someone yet to act after me. The flop has to hit me hard if I am to continue post flop, or else this hand is going in the muck and I'm waiting for the next round.


[/ QUOTE ]

What's the difference between 55, 44, 33 & 22 in this situation? If you don't hit the set on the flop, you are going to throw them away. If you hit a set, they will win the majority of the time. I'd play them the same.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
What's the difference between 55, 44, 33 & 22 in this situation? If you don't hit the set on the flop, you are going to throw them away. If you hit a set, they will win the majority of the time. I'd play them the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

The smaller your set, the more likely you are to be beat by a bigger set. A set of 2's does not earn as much as a set of 6's. Becuase a set of 6's earns more than a set of 2's you can play pocket 6's in more places than you can play pocket 2's.

Stu

[mike_wzrd]

[ QUOTE ]
The smaller your set, the more likely you are to be beat by a bigger set. A set of 2's does not earn as much as a set of 6's. Becuase a set of 6's earns more than a set of 2's you can play pocket 6's in more places than you can play pocket 2's.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the larger the pocket pair, then the more situations you can play it in, but the original quote was:

[ QUOTE ]
I will usually play pocket pairs down to 5/5 in late position if there have been several callers all ready in the pot, and I am last to act or have a good feeling tha I will not face a raise from someone yet to act after me. The flop has to hit me hard if I am to continue post flop, or else this hand is going in the muck and I'm waiting for the next round.


[/ QUOTE ]

So if you are in late position with several callers and not likely to face a raise, why wouldn't you play down to 22? Don't the 2s have a positive EV in that situation? The odds of someone else flopping a larger set in this situation is small.

[bunky9590]

preach on rev!

I don't have P Tracker, and haven't but I have learned from experience.

I wish I had this message board like 5 years ago!

Stats are nice but post flop play is where the money is.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't the 2s have a positive EV in that situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

The EV of a particular hand in a particular situation is not a constant number. The EV of a hand is dependent upon the skill of the player and its own intrinsic strength. Just because you can profitably play a pair of 2's in late position after several limpers in a passive game, does not mean that everyone can. Concievably someone who has negative EV with a pair of 2's could have positive EV with a pair of 6's in the same situation simply because a pair of 6's is intrinsically stronger than a pair of 2's.

[ QUOTE ]
The odds of someone else flopping a larger set in this situation is small

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but when it does happen you lose a lot of money. It happens the most with a set of 2's and the least with a set of Kings. Conversely, when you win with an overset, you win a lot of money. A set of 2's can never win as an overset. Because a set of 2's will occasionally be beat by an overset, and becuase a set of 6's will occasionally win as an overset, there is a significant difference in value between the two hands.

I hope this makes sense.

Stu

[Lori]

I think many of the newer players put too much emphasis on statistics and less emphasis on developing their poker skills

Ny hero.

Lori

[Luke]

I suggest you start by posting some hands.

I would also really look at how tight you are playing after a raise. Playing hands like AQo, KQo, AJo after a raise can be a recipe for disaster. In general, you should not be cold-calling raises very often - either 3-bet or fold.

Luke

[mike_wzrd]

Stu

Good points. Thanks

Mike

[BugsBunny]

I'll also open-raise it from the button. It's a good blind-steal hand which plays well shorthanded. I'll fold it from the CO though (in a 10 handed game, possibly even 6 handed - although there I'm likely to play it)

[BugsBunny]

[ QUOTE ]
Your up against odds of about 8/1 (10.8% or 8.3/1 to be exact)of flopping a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to nitpick but those numbers are slightly off. Your chances of flopping a set (or better) are 11.8% or 7.5 to 1 (which is still about 8 to 1)

[AceHigh]

Really small pairs like 44, 33, 22 are less likely to flop a straight draw and more likely to be counterfeited if the board pairs twice.

[Dylan Wade]

In loose games, playing 22 UTG is not a leak, but playing unsuited cards over 10 is. If you're going to play unsuited cards against many loose players, make sure they're the best. basically, AK and AQ. KQ AJ AT are hands that can be played profitably if you've cut the field down a bit (i.e. small # of limpers too you in MP or LP)

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
In loose games, playing 22 UTG is not a leak

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a leak for many skilled players. Often times they properly judge the game to be loose enough to play 22 UTG but they screw up by not considering if the game is passive enough.

Stu