Understanding this hand will make us all better.

[bad beetz]

This is an interesting hand. And I think it's important. It's important because I know 4 proven winning players who would have played it differently.

I know how Avarice, J.A. Sucker, myself, and haakee would have played it. We all play it differently, and we all win different amounts at poker (I come in last, by the way, at $4.83 an hour :-( .)

One of the four played the hand, I will not say who for now, because I want honest answers to this post.

THE HAND IN QUESTION (and don't turn this into a damn preflop debate, ok?):

two very weak terrible players limp, and a bad, slightly over-aggressive-but-sane young asian lady dealer limps. Hero limps on button with K /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, making a remark about how loose it is.

Flop comes Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

check, check, check, asian lady bets, .... OK. Here's your assignment.


A. Write a gameplan for the hand from this point forward and explain the reasons for your actions. Ignore the obvious preflop debate. You played the hand, we're worried about postflop play, cause that's where the money is here.

B. Let's assume you raised the flop and it's folded to lady who hesitantly three-bets. Now revise your gameplan for the rest of the hand. Call? Cap and check turn? Cap and bet turn? Be thourough.

C. You decided to cap the flop. Turn brings a total brick. revise your gameplan again. check or bet?



This hand is important because it focuses on different post-flop play (and by different, I mean these four players play this hand differently, some VERY differently, and yet all win, but different amounts)

If you are Avarice, Haakee, Sucker, or myself, do not respond with thoughts or results until we have a few answers.

[SinCityGuy]

One question. On the flop, with your big draw, do you really want to drive out the two horrible EP players? It might be better to smooth call and keep them in to help build the pot. Then, see what the turn brings.

[bad beetz]

yes, that's an obvious argument for smooth calling the flop.

Can you follow the format, A. B. C. Describe the rest of the way you play the hand after calling for A, for example, "I'll call here and if I get a caller and a check-raiser I'll three-bet, etc?"

Then for B and C assume you strayed from your plan and did those things and write new ones

sorry to be a pain

[34TheTruth34]

I don't know how I'd play the flop, but if I did cap it and she checked the turn, I'm betting 100% of the time. This is with the intention of checking behind on the river if I don't improve. You may have the best hand here or hit a heart, king or six that improves your hand. If I get check-raised on the turn, I can fold to a river bet if I don't improve. I'm interested to hear who played this hand, how, and what the results were.

[J.A.Sucker]

A few remarks before we continue.

The terrible players are just as likely to call 2 bets as 1 (if they have a pair or a gutshot).

Also, young asian lady and hero have played A LOT of poker together, and she plays differently against hero than most players, becoming a certifiable maniac.

For those who are unable to infer the following, I am the hero.

[bad beetz]

punk ass bwaatch! you've ruined my plan.

oh, and for further information, I think the asian lady is cute and sucker thinks she's hideous.

[J.A.Sucker]

My bad, beetz.

I didn't read the last sentence of your post. At any rate, we already had a "few" responses, no? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

BTW: I know that there's no accounting for taste, but, my lord, that woman is about 6 years of heavy drug use beyond attractive. However, I'm sure her husband would disagree with me /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Come on out with me and we'll work on finding you an attractive asian lady.

[David Sklansky]

Its slightly better to call on the flop because the pot is small.

Assuming you raise, its probably better to reraise as well.

When checked to on the turn, it is slightly better to bet unless there is almost no chance your sixes are the best hand.

It is wrong to think that playing these types of hands well is a major aspect of winning poker.

[Franchise (TTT)]

I never understood the "cap the flop with a pair and flush draw" automatic play.

A. I'd call to let the weak players in, as there's no reason to clean my K out (KQ and K8 seem unlikely, and KQ wouldn't fold anyway).

B. Now I'd cap for the free card, and bet the turn if I improve.

C. Check if she turns into a certifiable maniac.

[Diplomat]

First off, stop defending the pre-flop limp like it's a bad move. The pre-flop call is fine.

A. The first question to ask myself is what range of hands would this player limp in with, and which of those hands would she bet from late position. That step is probably pretty obvious, but whatever. Sometimes I need to tell myself to do it at the table.

Ok, she's sane. That's good, I guess. For her. With a couple bad players in front of her, and being in late position, she might have limped with a wide range of hands. Then she bets the flop in late position. So she could have a king, or an eight just as easily.

But let's forget about her for a second. Looking at the terrible limpers...I'll assume that if they have a pair or any draw, they will see the turn. Full stop. Maybe not for 3 bets, but almost surely for 2. So although you might want to just call here to get several calls and build a pot, go ahead and raise so they can make a mistake. If they fold, they would have for 1 bet anyway. And if they fold, that's not bad either, because you might end up heads up with position, a pair, and a strong draw against an over-aggressive player who might have very little. Also raise the flop to push hands like 9T, TJ, and JQ out.

If I get a couple callers and no re-raise, and the turn is a blank, I'd check almost every time. If I end up heads up and the asian woman just calls, I'd bet the turn almost every time. And if she re-raises, I'd probably cap the flop and check the turn (provided she checks to me). Occationally I'll bet the turn, but usually when I hold middle pair/overcard kicker rather than bottom pair. Also if I think she will lay down an 8 or weak king, sometimes I'll call the flop and raise the turn no matter what comes.

Obviously if a king, six, or heart comes, I'd bet/raise the rest of the way (although not necessarily if a K comes and she bets into me -- that reeks like kings up or a bluff, and I'd be more inclined to call down, or bet if checked to).

B. I sorta already answered this, but to say it again, I'd either call the flop and raise the turn if I think she would lay down a better hand, or cap the flop and usually check/sometimes bet the turn. I like calling the flop and calling the turn if a blank comes least of all, because it gives you the worst chance of winning the pot.

C. Again this is very player-dependent, and I'm not sure either is certian. Usually I'll check, but if I have a good read on her (that she's very weak) then I might bet.

2 things to consider: 1. She has a weak pair or ace high and put me on a flushdraw, and that's why she three-bet the flop. But when I cap, she puts me on a made hand of some sort and will fold a hand I would like her to fold (an eight, for example). 2. She flopped a big hand and wants to checkraise the turn. (I think this is less likely, because she might have just called the flop bet instead)

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

Good god I type slow. Seven responses before I could finish typing mine.

As I mentioned in my first post, I agree, they will call 2 if they will call 1. I think this makes raising ok.

-Diplomat

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero limps on button with K 6 , making a remark about how loose it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just my opinion, not saying anyone is a bad person or other than an uncommonly good fellow and exceptional gambler -- but I've always found the loose call comment lame.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
It is wrong to think that playing these types of hands well is a major aspect of winning poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

while this statement is true, i think the original poster meant to present a situation where you flop a favorable hand and good arguments can be made to play either aggressively or not from this point on.

personally, i vote for calling since the hero is likely to be behind (even though he might be the favorite to win heads up) and all of the cards that can improve his hand on the turn or river will likely to make his hand best (as opposed to complete or improve someone else's hand).

Kenny

[Philuva]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you follow the format, A. B. C. Describe the rest of the way you play the hand after calling for A, for example, "I'll call here and if I get a caller and a check-raiser I'll three-bet, etc?"

Then for B and C assume you strayed from your plan and did those things and write new ones

sorry to be a pain

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, this is a lot like homework. Aren't you suppose to be in NYC right now? Why are you posting hands?

Anway, I think I call the flop as I likely have 14 clean outs against all opponents so no need to limit the field.

Given that hero raised and isolated against the maniac, I like the flop 4 bet.

On the turn, I would continue to bet.

[bdk3clash]

Cool hand. I'm strictly a low-limit roller, but I'll give my thoughts.

[ QUOTE ]

A. Write a gameplan for the hand from this point forward and explain the reasons for your actions. Ignore the obvious preflop debate. You played the hand, we're worried about postflop play, cause that's where the money is here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm calling here to keep the other two players around for when (OK, if) I hit my /images/graemlins/heart.gif or 2-pair/trips.

If the turn is a rag, I'd probably raise with my second-nut draw (and other outs) if I could get it heads up to try to win the pot. If checked to I'd bet. If one of the EP players bets and someone else called, I'd probably just call and pray for a something on the river.

If checked to on the river after raising the turn, I'd bet. If checked to on the river after having called the turn, I'd check behind and lose.

[ QUOTE ]
B. Let's assume you raised the flop and it's folded to lady who hesitantly three-bets. Now revise your gameplan for the rest of the hand. Call? Cap and check turn? Cap and bet turn? Be thourough.

[/ QUOTE ]

I call, call the turn if I don't hit, and check-call the river if I don't hit.

[ QUOTE ]
C. You decided to cap the flop. Turn brings a total brick. revise your gameplan again. check or bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet. If she raises, I call and call the river if I don't hit. If she calls my turn bet, I bet the river and call a raise. Might as well take a stab at the pot--because of "my" aggressive play at the bigger streets, the pot is now big enough to make a play at, right? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Zele]

[ QUOTE ]
It is wrong to think that playing these types of hands well is a major aspect of winning poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

David, can you give a broad definition of "these types"? I would have assumed that the decision of whether or not to isolate/take control on the flop was a fundamental one in all cases, though the decision is close in this particular hand.

[DcifrThs]

First Id like to say that although this is a very interesting hand to think about and could be played many ways it is one that is not going to add much to your win at the end of the day (i.e.- pretty small pot, standard draw, may make showdown w/ best hand even if unimproved b/c "sane overly aggressive" asian lady was pushing a worse draw than yours). further i don't know to what degree or extent "understanding this hand will make us all better" as if this is the key to the magic kingdom of three-big-bets-an-hour-ville. and i therefore agree with david that this is good food for thought but not steroids for the muscular $5/hr win rate. no worries though, posting and thinking and reading and playing and watching and learning will pump that bad boy up to the GOVERNATOR type soon enough ;-)

for the record mine ain't much better overall but the small sample from 10/20 and 15/30 in vegas (60 hrs) is surprisingly large (due to luck and WAAAAAAAIIIIITING for the goodies).

A. step 1) what does OAA (over aggressive asian) have? i have a loooonnnngggg list since ive seen many an OA[A] have not so sane holdings even though i had at one point labeled them as "sane"
(bellagio 15/30, korean man in blue sweater sits down and seems initially to play ok, then enters many pots w/ just calls-i begin to change my opinion from "tight unknown" to "fairly loose-passive", then he degenerates over varying times to "loose-aggressive" and "super loose passive"(the difference being playing 1/3 or 2/3 hands vs. 4/5 or worse) and one time showed me a pair of threes during his loose aggressive stage after i called him down with middle pair after he bet flop and i raised to isolate with probable best hand here after watching his poor aggressive play i didn't want a ten calling as well: 98s on [kt965 non suited on flop] board in late position)

BUT, i digress just to show that sane may be a function of the time that the lady has been playing and she could change or be more or less sane at any given time (things i see with "over aggressive 'sane'" people. i don't want to sound racist here either but i tend to see OAA type people as less "mean reverting" than other typical aggressive players. for some reason korean, japanese, and chinese (not so much phillipean and s-e asians) seem to be very volatile at times and i leave the table without a one-to-five word classification other than "wow."

My preferred game plan is call and hope for a few overcalls from bb, t1 and t2 (big blind, terrible 1 and terrible 2). I don't know how likely it is for bb t1 and t2 to call raises with various hands b/c i don't know in what way they are terrible but one of them might call the raise but either way i'd still want to just call. another reason to call here is that i've found when in games w/ OAA type people i choose (just me here) to sometimes make the choice of a play between two faily even choices that has the lower st. dev. (only when the EV won't change too much either way) Therefore i call here most if not all the time unless i NEED to isolate for some reason. if i get a few calls and turn blanks and its checked i check. if nobody overcalls and its checked (not likely from OAA) i bet b/c a check at that point from OAA signals "i'm ready to fold here" or "im gunna c-r (check raise) you if you think i'm ready to fold here." with the latter being less likely since if i just called the flop why would the OAA suddenly think i'd bet if she checked to she could c-r? after all, all i've done this whole hand is call... if nobody calls and she bets turn i call a good portion of the time and raise if: a) she bets too fast, signalling pushing that draw w/ a weak-to-no hand, b) splashes pot, or c) otherwise tells me her hand is worse than mine is unimproved. if river blanks again i'll have to see texture of board and OAA while she bets to determine what to do but i'll most likely call as pot is decent now and OAA could be pushing a varity of hands as long as i don't feel she may have backed into a hand but thats a hard feeling to justify so id call a good portion here unimproved. if i improve in turn and/ or river i'm obviously playing OAA's game with her and betting/raising on the bigger streets as much as possible.

B. i choose to raise to isolate and build pot w/ strong draw while not exactly knowing where i'm at. she calls i play hand as aggressor the rest of the way through, betting when checked to, raising if bet b/c of the weak call from OAA on flop. if she 3bets i r-r (reraise) b/c its still smaller street and i may convince her i do in fact have that q if shes puhing the 8. this may result in being shown an odd hand like q8 or 86 but i feel thats unlikely. if unimproved and she bets i call on turn (if cap didn't slow her down she may a) have real hand or b) be in crazy aggressive mode so i call to draw in either case). again if improved i bet/raise whenever possible (by improved i'm thinking 6 or heart, with a king i may slow it down a bit b/c of possibility of being shown k8 but that again is pretty unlikely)

I think that just about covers it...q? c? [questions? comments?]

Again, good and interesting hand to post. i like the thinking involved but not so much the overstated learning value. I think you (badbeetz) may be assuming it is VERY valuable b/c all 4 winning players play it differently but that should actually show that there can't be TOO much to learn because there might not be that much change in ev from one to the other.

anyway, i'm done. whew.
-Barron

[Tommy Angelo]

"It is wrong to think that playing these types of hands well is a major aspect of winning poker."

Hey, I was going to say that.

The reasoning of this thread strikes me like this:

Some players do things differently than others.

Some players score differently than others.

Therefore, if you can find a situation in which several players of similar score would do things differently, then you have uncovered a consequential situation, one in which the various choices have significantly different expectation.

I read the thread and came to an opposite conclusion. If similarly scoring players would all play a certain situation differently, then it probably doesn't matter to any of their bottom lines which betting choice is made. All choices have roughly the same EV.

Generally, I think of pair-and-a-flush-draw hands as not much mattering what I do with them anyway, so my conclusion this time falls into line with my hunch.

Tommy

[elysium]

hi bad
ok, you have all the conditions for entry, but its so ev marginal without other considerations like a short stacked BB or needing to slow the orbit velocity of a button moving at too high a rate of speed; you may need to make this pre-flop call just to signal to the back field that you don't raise as much as people say you do. and it's almost always imperative that you call if you're the one responsible for the speeding button.

there are situations in this spot when you shouldn't call, but we won't get into that.

on the flop, i would feed the button a little fuel. in this spot, a fast button is better than a slow one. so increase the forward speed of the button a little with a raise.

if the better finds enough purchase to feed the button more fuel still, you will now almost certainly have a show-down. you therefore need to lift your foot off the buttons accelerator peddle, and call to slow-down the button again. if your foot slips and you hit the gas, you'll have an image problem to contend with that causes opponents in the back field who folded to dig down and find the button's accelerator peddle in later rounds. so here's the thing;

unless you have a high speed button strategy, usually set some reasonable speed limit by staying away from reraises when the reraise doesn't have strategic or monetary value. if you like a fast button game, then boost the juice from late position when you have a strong made hand. this hand bad isn't strong enough for that either. reraising will only hurt you. i would never reraise in this spot. call 100% of the time.

if the turn bricks and button momentum is feeding off its own orbit, give the button a little free play by allowing your hand to improve at no cost. this will also keep the button's speed limit at good healthy pace.

[mike l.]

i flat call the flop cause i want other people in. this overrides anything else going on like buying free card, buying more outs, etc, etc. the pot is not big, i want my hand disguised, and i want to draw for cheap. btw i do not think this is at all close or debatable.

this is 100% how i would play it. put some callers in between the bettor and i and i raise it to build a pot, oftentimes take a free river, and so on. if i raise i always cap in this scenario. and if checked to on the turn brick i check.

and i have to add in that i fold this preflop about 90% of the time. most of you should as well, hardly any of you are good enough to play it +EV.

[DcifrThs]

mike,

thanks for making me do ALL THAT WORK for your short little reply lol. i love it.

anyway, since there were 4 of you and 4 different ways to play it...could you say what the other folks said they'd want to do (after you read my long ass post because it took me a while to write it!!!)

thanks,
-Barron

[AQheartbreak]

like most people, call. same reason, pot's small and you want others in the hand while you draw. Your King might not be an out if KQ is out against you. you'll get a 6x out, but you prolly dominate it anyway, and it's drawing slim. If you think youre 6 is best, then i guess a raise is ok to protect it, but the answer is obvious. You are really lookin to hit youre flush. Also, if someone happens to hold Ax hearts, nullifying your flush draw, then you save bets by calling, becuase the nut flush is going no where. I think its pretty straight forward, call.

[Your Mom]

I think DS is saying the decision is so close it doesn't matter.

[DiamondDave]

Just calling is the play here. (Take heed, because this is coming from someone who tends to raise whenever it's close between calling and raising.)

Keeping the rest of your opponents in is the overriding concern. Also, you don't want to leave it open to a re-raise from the orignal bettor. (You're winning in expectation if four people put in one bet. You're losing in expectation if you and the asian lady each put in three.)

I'm up for capping the betting once it becomes clear that everyone is in, though. I'd be even more enthusiastic if I were drawing to the nut flush, but that's just me.

For those of you who think that drawing to the king-high flush in late position is mandatory, I just watched Ad8d (in the blinds) and KdQd (in the cutoff) go seven bets on the flop that contained two diamonds with no pair between them. The checked the turn and the river. Ace-high took it down. I shudder to think of the carnage that another diamond would have brought to someone's stack.

And, no, I wasn't involved in the hand.

[Avarice]

A. I agreed with most of the posters here, and said that I would smooth-call just about every time. By letting the other people in the hand with my two shots at 14 outs to what I think would almost certainly be the best hand, I feel confident that I am getting a +EV situation (given that I rarely see terrible players fold for one bet on any flop). By raising to get heads-up against someone I may or may not have beat with a tiny pot at stake, I believe the situation is still +EV (due to my outs), but just not as much. Also, I don't care about variance one way or the other, but the latter play is much higher on that. Note that if one of those terrible players raises, then I reraise or cap the flop for a plethora of reasons.

B. I 4-bet the turn. If she 5-bets (no cap heads-up), I call, then call the turn and can fold on the river if I haven't caught by then.

C. If she bets, I call and muck on the river if I don't catch. If she checks, I bet and will bluff the river if any card higher than 8 hits, otherwise I will check and hope my pair of 6's are good.

[worm33]

I dont think how 2 idiots play A ace high flush draw against a King high flush draw has any bearing on the difference between the 2. They put 7 bets in on the flop and checked it down? Thats uh good poker.

[J.A.Sucker]

OK, now that lots of people have gotten a chance to reply, I'll give more insight.

Preflop, I make a lot of loose calls on the button, especially against a weak lineup like there was here. The BB was a complete moron, as were the two limpers. They literally will chase any perceived draw all the way, and at least one of them will do it for any number of bets. The Asian lady is another special consideration, and I'll elaborate more on that later.

The flop came down beautiful for me. The calling stations checked to the Asian lady, who bet. My choices were to call or to raise. Calling is better if the following condition is met: The checkers will call one bet but not two with their thin draws. However, this is NOT the case with these people. If they have any piece of this flop, they will call two SB's. Against normal players, calling is better. However, against these especially terrible players, raising is far superior, IMO. This was an extreme case.

The Asian lady's presence also makes it better to raise, and here's why: We have literally played 100's of hours together, and I routinely run over her, especially when we're headsup. She realizes this, and she likes to "take a stand" whenever she has any kind of hand. Since she bet out to me in a multiway pot, I knew she had an OK hand, most likely a Q. I love my hand against her headsup, since I'm a favorite against whatever hand she has (she slowplays her sets in these spots).

Alas, the checkers all folded, but that's OK. Now, Asian lady 3 bet me. I know that I'm in good shape now against her. She has a good, but vulnerable hand, like a Q. I'm almost positive of this. Now, I'm willing to keep raising her headsup (no cap once everyone folds) all the way to the felt, which was like 300 dollars. This was my plan. Even if I were to lose this hand, I'd be getting action from her forever.

Unfortuantely, she slowed down and called my 4 bet.

The turn came a J. She checked, I bet. I'm not taking a free card, since I have a pair, which may be good.

The river came another J, but it completed my flush. She checked, I bet, and she called. I would have checked behind if I missed, and if checkraised, I would call.

This really isn't a good "post" hand, since my decision on the flop was player-dependent, and not really easily communicated here. Plus, I don't think beetz realized all of the factors that I considered. In a normal spot, I usually call on the flop, but this was a special circumstance. However, either decision is close, and it really doesn't matter what you do.

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
I knew she had an OK hand, most likely a Q. I love my hand against her headsup, since I'm a favorite against whatever hand she has (she slowplays her sets in these spots).

[/ QUOTE ]
you're only a 1.60% favorite against Q2o, and a dog to KQ or 2 pair.
[ QUOTE ]
The turn came a J. She checked, I bet. I'm not taking a free card, since I have a pair, which may be good.

[/ QUOTE ]
i thought she had a Q?

[shemp]

Shhhhhhhhhh.

[elysium]

hi mr. sklansky
i don't understand the 4 bet. in this situation.....let me just without getting into button speed cha, da, da, ta, pa. in this situation, he's in late position. he's on the button. on the button. the game is passive with weak limpers. i am more interested in the ev gained by not frightening the limpers. if i'm going to be in the CO on the next hand, i want the field to continue to limp in if they are in a limping mode for now. the 4 bet will insure that i get the ball on the next round, but i won't have the opportunity to maximize the ev if on that round i have a strong hand.

in this situation, i think the ev is in encouraging the field to limp to me when i'm in the CO. if i get a small pair, under those conditions, i can play it correctly. i'm sure though that you do well when checked to in the CO. but that's specialized play for experts. in this game i like the speed limit.

on the turn, i again like the check to keep the limpers limping to me on the next hand when i take the CO, and to allow my hand to improve. this also avoids a possible check-raise.

if there were no limpers, then i like the 4 bet and turn bet assuming game conditions were different. but bad has precious limpers to think about, and must keep that button moving along at a goodly limited speed.

[Franchise (TTT)]

This K-high vs. A-high flush theory again?

The diamond didn't come. As I mentioned last time, the diamond is 20% less likely to come when they're both holding two diamonds each.

[J.A.Sucker]

She may not have a Q. Even if she does, it doesn't really matter. I'm willing to go nuts with her here for meta-game reasons. I play with the same players, day in, day out. She also raises KQo here preflop.

When she slowed down on the flop, I put her either on a Q (most likely) or a 6. Now, I may have the best hand, or I don't. However, I'm gonna pay 1 BB if I miss in either event, since she'll bet out the river if I check the turn. This way, I can get 2 BB in the pot if I hit my hand, which I did.

BTW: Results: She had A6, so she had me outkicked, but I sucked out. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[J.A.Sucker]

And yes, I realize that I was in a -EV scenario going to the felt against her A6, but she wouldn't reraise me here, anyway.

[Clarkmeister]

I haven't read any thoughts (or results if they are up) yet.

1. The preflop limp is insanely easy. I can't fathom that anyone would think its a fold.

2. I raise her on the flop.

3. If its folded to her and she 3-bets, I 4-bet.

4. If she checks to me on the turn, I bet with the intention of taking the free showdown if I miss the river, or betting if I improve.

Off to read the thread.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
i flat call the flop cause i want other people in. this overrides anything else going on like buying free card, buying more outs, etc, etc. the pot is not big, i want my hand disguised, and i want to draw for cheap. btw i do not think this is at all close or debatable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Screw all that. I have the best draw and I might well have the best hand. Headsup is just fine, thank you very much. If they want to call two cold, then that's okie dokie too.


[ QUOTE ]
i have to add in that i fold this preflop about 90% of the time. most of you should as well, hardly any of you are good enough to play it +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please. I submit that anyone who can't play K6s for +EV on the button behind a bunch of poor limpers isn't capable of beating the game.

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
Since she bet out to me in a multiway pot, I knew she had an OK hand, most likely a Q.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
She has a good, but vulnerable hand, like a Q. I'm almost positive of this.

[/ QUOTE ]
and now:
[ QUOTE ]
She may not have a Q.

[/ QUOTE ]
if you were 'almost positive' she had a better hand, why would you bet because she 'may not'? per your own words, this wasn't a meta-game consideration; the one and only reason you gave for betting the turn was that your read may have been wrong.

huh?

[ZeeJustin]

To quote Clarkmeister:
[ QUOTE ]
I haven't read any thoughts (or results if they are up) yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither have I.

A. I call this flop because I think a raise may likely drive out 2 players.

B. Cap to take a free card.

C. Check the turn. Most likely I will fold to a river bet, depending on the texture of the board.

[ZeeJustin]

A lot of posts seem to imply there's a good chance the 6's may be good. Maybe I missed something, but is she a maniac?

[ QUOTE ]
and a bad, slightly over-aggressive-but-sane

[/ QUOTE ]

I take this to mean she won't 3 bet with nothing very often. Sure, maybe she has 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif or something, but isn't it far more likely she has your pair of 6's beat? Because of this, I plan to play this hand like a drawing hand, with 9 outs to the flush, 2 outs to trips, and 3 outs to 2 pair.

[Gabe]

I would raise on the flop. I'm going to the river. I might have the best hand, with my pair. I'd like to get it head-up with another draw. If the two limpers fold, I would consider my flop mission accomplished. If the original better reraised I might reraise, or not. I'd be more inclined to reraise if it would be a cap. I’d probably take a free card if I capped the flop, and call if unimproved on the river. After the flop raise most of my decisions would be based on my opponent. How tricky is she, does she like to check-raise semi-bluff the turn. Etc. I could even see myself waiting until the turn to raise, just calling until I improved.

[mike l.]

" I have the best draw and I might well have the best hand."

yeah right. dont be dumb. a pair of sixes is almost always not the best hand on that board against all those players.

"Headsup is just fine, thank you very much."

no it's not fine, it's stupid. if you raise and dump out someone who is perfectly willing to call one but not two bets w/ very little (for instance something like Jd9x), someone who could easily make a second best hand, or even be drawing dead should you make your flush on the turn, then you are making a big mistake. you dont want to lose players like that when you have a lovely draw.

it's unfortunate that the flop action was such that you couldnt trap people in to paying multiple bets when youre flushing with a pair, but making things worse by saying "screw it" and raising them out is just awful.

[Avarice]

[ QUOTE ]
Screw all that. I have the best draw and I might well have the best hand. Headsup is just fine, thank you very much. If they want to call two cold, then that's okie dokie too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heads up is not fine for me with this hand, since I play to win chips, not pots. There are 5 small bets in that pot, 6 counting the asian lady flop bet. Those terrible players might be willing to put lots more chips into this (currently) small pot if I don't give them a reason to fold by raising with my great multiway hand.

That said, if I truly believed they would call 2 cold with bad cards, I would raise. Most of the terrible players I know, however, will call a flop bet with Ace-high or sometimes less, but show a great willingness to throw away for two bets in a small pot.

Why would you want to play this hand heads-up, Clark? It seems like a waste of the terrible players that made a K6s limp worthwhile in the first place.

[hillbilly]

i can't talk to him either mike, i just know i don't want him at my table, heh.

[gaylord focker]

I like the raise on the flop only if you really feel that the limpers will call two cold if they are anywhere near this board. I have to agree with Mike that a large majority of the time you are going to be behind here, even though you are likely the favorite to win the hand. But considering your description of the limpers, I like the way you played the flop.

I don't agree with your decision to raise her all in on the flop if she chose to keep firing. After about six or seven bets I would start to think she held 77 and you would be down to nine outs, and would have her redraw to worry about.