2/4 PartyPoker - 9s, 9c - 4 away from the button

[BIGRED]

Please provide some feedback on how I played this hand. I'm new to this forum and this is my first hand post.

There are 9 players at the table.
Seat 1 is BB.

Me: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Seat 2: fold
Seat 3: call
Seat 4: fold
Seat 5 (me): raise
Seat 6: fold
Seat 7: empty
Seat 8: fold
Seat 9: call
Seat 10: fold
Seat 1 (BB) and Seat 3 call my raise.

4 players see the flop:

Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T /images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Seat 1: check
Seat 3: check
Me: bet
Seat 9: call
Seat 1: fold
Seat 3: fold

So, it's me and Seat 9 (Button) in for the turn.
Turn comes 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Me: bet
Seat 9: calls

River comes 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Me: check
Seat 9: check

I will post the result later. I think you can pretty much tell by the river action who won, but my question is should I have bet the river? Or is checking here the right play in the long run? I had a feeling since he didn't raise me at the turn that he didn't have a Queen, but still, I just wanted to play safely at the river and just check.

[NutCrackerr]

I'd bet the river and probably laydown to a re-raise. Other than that I think you played the hand fine.

[BIGRED]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd bet the river and probably laydown to a re-raise. Other than that I think you played the hand fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lay down to a re-raise? or... do you mean to say lay down if he raises me?

My reasoning for just checking on the river is this.

After the turn action, I was pretty sure I had him beat. But the reason why I didn't bet the river is because of the somewhat likely possibility that I may have been slow played at the turn.

If he doesn't have anything, he will likely fold to my river bet and I will win, but I won't get to see his cards. If I just check and he checks then I get to see the result for free and also get to see his cards.

If I was slow played, he will raise me and I either fold without knowing anything about what he played or pay the raise to see what he had.

Is this good reasoning... or am I not maximizing my profit by thinking this way? I often use this logic on the river, especially if I'm first to act, if I have a mediocre, but possibly a winning hand.

Would others please comment.

[LetsRock]

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd bet the river and probably laydown to a re-raise. Other than that I think you played the hand fine.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Lay down to a re-raise? or... do you mean to say lay down if he raises me?



[/ QUOTE ]

YEs that's what he meant.

It depends on the read of your opponent whether to bet or check this river. If he's known to be tricky, then you played it the way I would have. If unknown, I probably would have continued to bet (since I'd been showing strength throughout the hand) and been hoping not to get a call.

If you're looking for information, checking is good, but that doesn't mean you'll see his cards if you beat him.

This kind of hand can be real tough from out of position. I think you did OK here and probably didn't lose a bet (assuming you did win the pot).

[ResidentParanoid]

pre-flop: limp, hoping to get many callers and flop a set. If you don't, check/fold on the flop.

post-flop: Bet on the flop with 2 behind is OK. You only get 1 caller, but with 4 seeing the flop with you, Q or T is very possible. Since EP players have gone away, chances of a slow played Q are lessened.

Turn: Heads up you must bet here. If your opponent has a T, he may give it up here. If you aren't raised, you are likely against a T or less.

River: Because this is 2/4 and your opponent has come this far, he's likely to call your river bet, regardless of what he has. Straight or flush draws may just fold rather than call your bet. Again, because this is 2/4, I'm more likely to bet heads-up. If you feared the queen, you should have given up long ago.

[BIGRED]

[ QUOTE ]
This kind of hand can be real tough from out of position. I think you did OK here and probably didn't lose a bet (assuming you did win the pot).


[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Rock, I'm the guy trying to GET THERE... I think you're the one that replied to that post with some honest straight talk. I like that. Everything I was thinking, but needed to hear from someone else. I hope inputs from this site and hand analysis such as this will help me improve.

I did win the hand.

What do you think about the raise in that position? Someone else who responded said just call. and hope for a set. Did I get too crazy on the preflop?

[NutCrackerr]

Sorry for the confusion. Yes, I meant laydown to a raise.

If he had a queen, most of the time you would have heard about it on the turn.

At the 2/4 level the "information" you would have received is not worth the $4 you might have gotten out of him. Plus there is no guarantee you will see his cards if checked through. Plus by checking through, you have just given away information to the whole table when your winning hand was exposed.

I think checking here could also have put you in a bad position if he bet. What do you do? Would you call? If a hand is worth a call, it's worth a bet.

[BIGRED]

[ QUOTE ]
pre-flop: limp, hoping to get many callers and flop a set. If you don't, check/fold on the flop.

post-flop: Bet on the flop with 2 behind is OK. You only get 1 caller, but with 4 seeing the flop with you, Q or T is very possible. Since EP players have gone away, chances of a slow played Q are lessened.

Turn: Heads up you must bet here. If your opponent has a T, he may give it up here. If you aren't raised, you are likely against a T or less.

River: Because this is 2/4 and your opponent has come this far, he's likely to call your river bet, regardless of what he has. Straight or flush draws may just fold rather than call your bet. Again, because this is 2/4, I'm more likely to bet heads-up. If you feared the queen, you should have given up long ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understood everything you said, but not sure about your comment on RIVER.

1)Why does it matter what limit it is?

2)I fear the Queen now (at the RIVER) more than I did before because he's come this far. I think it would have been premature for me to give up my attack on the turn. If he raised me at the turn then, I most likely would have folded...

Hmmmm... I'm thinking to myself as I writing this... so if he didn't raise me at the turn and from this I gathered that he most likely doesnt have a Q, then I should have just bit the bullet and bet the river... is that it? But again, what if I get raised here? Now I will fold but didn't get a free show down.

I'm going in circles... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[BIGRED]

[ QUOTE ]

I think checking here could also have put you in a bad position if he bet. What do you do? Would you call? If a hand is worth a call, it's worth a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I checked with the intention to call. I just didn't want to get raised.

Is this not the preferred thinking? I just wanted to get a free showdown or one bet showdown.

Also, if everyone checks, what's the rule on showing the cards... maybe I'm not clear on this.

[bisonbison]

Why did you raise preflop?

[Joe Tall]

Just for future reference you hand is easier to read like this:

_____________________________________
1 limper, and I raise w/9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif, the button cold calls, BB calls and the limper calls. 4 players to the flop for 8 SBs.

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Check to me and I bet, only the button calls.

Turn: 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet, button calls.

River: 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check the button checks. What do you think of my play? How many superbowls with Tom Brady win, 6 or 7? Did I miss a bet on the river?

Something like that.... /images/graemlins/grin.gif
_______________________________________________

I think you have a value bet on the river given you bet the turn without any sign of resistance. You'll see the flush draw calling here, inaddition to players calling with a hand like AJ or even Ax in these low limit games.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

bisonbisonbisonbisonbisonbisonthomastemsfriend?bis onbison,

Raising with 99 is a fine play after 1 limper if you have a good chance to limit the field.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[NutCrackerr]

Your opponent was just calling along. There is no reason to fear him. If you knew he had a tendancy to slowplay then maybe checking would be better. At this point there is a huge range of hands he could be calling along with. Any 2 spades, perhaps a straight draw, maybe he's got a 6, who knows.

At Party, if you have the auto-muck uncalled hands checked, and the river is checked through, and you lose, your hand will not be shown.

[MRBAA]

I think your basic thinking is okay, but incomplete.

I'd check the river with this hand, but if the flop were QQ8, and everything else the same, I'd bet. Do you see why?

[BIGRED]

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you raise preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question... I think reading this and my other hand analysis, I have been too quick to raise or call a raise preflop. But yes, I know the correct play would have been limp to get more people in just in case I flop a set..., right?

What if I was LP and it was folded to me? Would a raise here be correct to take the blinds?

What if I was LP and I'm facing a raise and a call from, say, two earlier players? What is the preferred play with 99? I think the correct answer is to fold because I would have called... /images/graemlins/blush.gif

What if I was LP and say more than half the table limped and someone raised? What's the move? I would call and see the flop.

[Nate tha' Great]

I'd check-call the river to attempt to induce a bluff.
You're limiting your exposure to one bet that way if behind. However, you might get him to bet with some hands that he otherwise would have folded, particularly flush/straight draws.

[bisonbison]

[ QUOTE ]
bisonbisonbisonbisonbisonbisonthomastemsfriend?bis onbison,

Raising with 99 is a fine play after 1 limper if you have a good chance to limit the field.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's kind of the question. 4 off the button, did his table read say it was tight enough justify the raise? Is a typical party 2/4 tight enough to let him limit the field? And if JJ is a trouble hand against 3 or 4 players, then 99 is what?

He gets three callers and doesn't buy the button. I'm trying not to be results oriented, but that looks like a bad outcome and a scary flop.

[BIGRED]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your basic thinking is okay, but incomplete.

I'd check the river with this hand, but if the flop were QQ8, and everything else the same, I'd bet. Do you see why?


[/ QUOTE ]

Is it because the 8 is lower than my 9 and that's one less card that can beat my 99?

[jonahmavesin]

Right idea, but I think you can be clearer about it. Specifically, what are the hands that you're still afraid of? You have now put him on not having the Q. What else could he be calling you down with?

A draw or a T is very likely. You can't beat a T, but the T will call you. On the other hand, the draw may well fold to your bet. So the bet is probably not going to be a value play.

On the other hand, if it's QQ8, your hand is good in both cases.

Incidentally, I agree with his recommendation. I think betting out here is -EV, especially given the slim chance of a raise. Certainly call if he bets, you may induce a bluff.

[LetsRock]

Again, and you'll hear this a lot, this kind of stuff is somewhat table specific.

Personally, I'm not a fan of raising 99 in most situations, but that's just my style. Some will tell you to do it most of the time and a few will tell you to not even play it at all. I'm not saying that to do so was wrong, just that I probably wouldn't have.

I'm a firm beleiver in the "there's more than one way to do most things" rule. If aasked, I'll give my opinion on something, but never assume that it's the "right" way to do it. It's the way that I've "learned" to be correct for my style.

[MRBAA]

Basically yes. You're trying to figure out what your opponent might have that you can beat but will call. If you assume he'll fold busted str8 and flush draws, that leaves a pair. The other card on the flop was a 10. Calling down could mean he hit a 10 and is afraid you have a queen. Since he's unlikely to fold to your bet with a ten, but might not bet himself either, you check to avoid betting his hand for him. If it's an eight, he's still making the same play. But now you can beat one of his likely calling hands, so there's more value in betting. Even in the actual hand, he could have had something like A-6 and picked up bottom pair on the turn and been calling. But there are less hands he can call with that you beat.

[BIGRED]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically yes. You're trying to figure out what your opponent might have that you can beat but will call. If you assume he'll fold busted str8 and flush draws, that leaves a pair. The other card on the flop was a 10. Calling down could mean he hit a 10 and is afraid you have a queen. Since he's unlikely to fold to your bet with a ten, but might not bet himself either, you check to avoid betting his hand for him. If it's an eight, he's still making the same play. But now you can beat one of his likely calling hands, so there's more value in betting. Even in the actual hand, he could have had something like A-6 and picked up bottom pair on the turn and been calling. But there are less hands he can call with that you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes sense.

Let me re-articulate and tell me if I got it right. At this point, I need to beleive in the read I got on his hand after the turn.... that he doesn't have a strong hand. If I get raised on the turn, then I fold and don't look back. If he bluffed me then good for him. I got outplayed. (Or would you still call here?)

Now for the river. if I continue with the line of thought I had at the turn, then he still has nothing scary. Maybe 44, but I can't be worried about that now.

But in the sceanrio you laid out where the flop is QQ8, I should bet because if he has 8, then he will call to see my hand. If he folds, then it's just as well.

But if the flop is QQT (as was in this case) then I don't bet the river because if he does decide to build up enough courage to call then he will beat me.

As on the turn, if he raised me (in the scenario of QQ8) on the river, I fold also, fearing indeed he did have a Q or even a full house with a 66 or 44...

How did I do? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ResidentParanoid]

Bet the river because this is 2/4 and your opponents do dumb things like: call when they have a busted draw or underpair, fold when they've been calling all the way with a T, etc. Against a reasonable opponent I would think harder, but against the typical 2/4 player heads up, I'll bet it a lot more, giving my opponent a chance to make a mistake. Worst case, you lose to a T that calls, and this guy will be calling you the rest of the day when he has a weak or non-existent hand.

[ResidentParanoid]

I have to disagree with the river here. If villain has T, my only chance to win is for him to fold it. I'll make a 2/4 player make a choice. And he may also call with a lot of lesser garbage as well.

I know the weakness here is that if he has a T, this is likely a player that calls too much, but at least I'm reinforcing that for future hands. I.e., villain is rewarded for calling here with what could easily be a hand that is way behind. He may pay me off the rest of the night (if he wasn't already going to do that).

[bvaughn]

Party Poker 3/6

I limp on the button after two limpers (UTG & MP) and a poster (MP2) with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif...SB calls, BB checks - 6 to flop

Flop 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, poster folds, I raise (because I think my hand might be good, and easy fold to reraise), BB calls 2 cold (uh oh), UTG calls.

Turn 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif[7 /images/graemlins/club.gif]

Checked to me and I bet, BB folds, UTG calls.

River 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif[9 /images/graemlins/club.gif]

UTG checks, I check with the thought - if he had a K, he's going to check-raise (weak thought), and if he's on a busted flush draw he'll fold, therefore my bet gains me nothing.

Unfortunately, he turns over 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif for the busted flush draw, but rivered winner. Would a river bet have won me the pot? Did he put me on a King? I guess I'll never know, and I'm not sure if I made the right decision or not.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
If villain has T, my only chance to win is for him to fold it. I'll make a 2/4 player make a choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think if villian has a pair of ten's he's now folding for one more bet on the river. I don't. Let's see. He coldcalled 2 bets pre-flop with Tx, called a bet on the flop while possibly facing trip Queens, called again on the turn. I don't think one more bet is going to fold him now on the river (nor should it at this point).

[ QUOTE ]
And he may also call with a lot of lesser garbage as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that's a reason to bet. Personally, I think it is a pretty thin value bet at the river here and would not lose too much sleep over checking it through.

[GuyOnTilt]

I'd check the river with this hand, but if the flop were QQ8, and everything else the same, I'd bet. Do you see why?

I understand that this question is the circulating joke right now, but this one is so obvious. It doesn't take anything more than a fundamental understand of the game to see the difference between betting 99 on a QQTxx board as compared to a QQxxx board on the river here. The check on the river here is the right play. There is so little value in a bet here that it's outweighed by the chance of a T checking through, or a busted draw trying to bluff your Ace-high.

The hand was played well on all streets. I'm not really sure why a couple people said to limp preflop; raising here is SOP for me.

GoT

[Nottom]

Were you planning on calling a bet? Is he the kind of guy who would bet a missed draw if checked to?

Basically it works out something like this:
Lets say he will bet with an Q, a T, JJ-AA or a bluff.
He will call with any pair or better and maybe less.

So unless he if going to bluff more often than he has a smaller pair you should just go ahead and bet yourself.

Now in this case considering the board I think you are likely either beat or against a draw, so inducing the bluff seems like a good plan to me.

P.S.-raising with the 99 preflop should be standard here.

[LetsRock]

I don't think the river bet would have took the pot. He'd have kept you honest.

[MRBAA]

Yeah, sorry about the Sklansky joke. But my point was just that hand-reading is what a lot of players neglect. Unless this guy is totally insane, he must think he has something to have called on every street. So, looking at the board, what could it be. The most likely things here are either a straight draw, a flush draw a pocket pair or a 10. A stronger hand would probably raise the turn, a weaker one would have folded.
So, in this instance, the drawing hands you can beat probably won't call. A 10 most likely will -- and will beat you. So your only really good scenario is something like a turned pair of 6s or a pocket pair like 8s, 7s, 5s, 3s or 2s. Now make the 10 an 8 and you've got another very likely hand that you can beat, so a bet has more value. It's obvious in this case, but this type of thinking, along with knowledge of specific opponents and of pot and card odds are pretty much what it takes to play well, IMHO