no flop, no draw, I raise!

[gaylord focker]

30-60 at the Commerce today. I rarely play there due to the fact that Bobby Hoff turned me into a little girl last visit, but time to get back on the horse. Anyway I have J /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif in the SB and call a raise from the cutoff. He is loose an over aggresive, and could have anything from AA to 56. The BB also calls.

Flop:K /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check, BB checks, and cutoff bets. The BB puts her cards between her middle and index fingers ready to muck. I raise, BB folds cutoff calls. Turn is a blank I bet and he folds. Honestly, I had no read on him, he could have flopped 3 kings for all I knew. But knowing he could hold such a wide range of hands, does anyone else make this type of play without some sort of draw with a board like this? Is this play + or - EV with a tight image with boards like this agaist a loose late postion raiser?

[astroglide]

i hate the preflop call vs pretty much anyone

[Josh W]

I'm assuming you'd threebet against a many different opponents then, right?

J

[Josh W]

I do this too often.

But this is the right type of flop to do it at...there are a lot of turn cards that give you a hand or very legit draw, and unless he has a King, he'll have a tough time calling the turn. Knowing the BB will fold is key.

One thing I've noted about myself is that when I checkraise in this situation it means one thing, and when i bet out, it means something else, with waaaaay too much consistency. So, make sure you are also checkraising with real hands, and betting bluffs, etc....keep 'em guessing...

hope you booked a "W"...I may be up there tomorrow night...gotta start playing some satellites...

Josh

[astroglide]

not if i'm playing well. i think queen high is not a good hand heads up, out of position, vs a raiser regardless of how dumb they are. i'm only 3betting if they'll fold to a bet on the flop if they miss.

[SinCityGuy]

Gaylord,

When the CO or button open raises, I'm starting to get the discipline to either fold or 3-bet from the small blind. I might be wrong, but if I'm going in then I want to knock out the big blind and take command of the pot.

I like the aggression after the flop. It's an area of my game that needs much improvement.

[bad beetz]

he has to be capable of folding small pockets and not capable of playing back at you with nothing, but if that's the case, then yes, this [censored] is OK.

[SoBeDude]

Calling and raising the flop is a good alternative to 3-betting preflop.

Many opponents are more willing to believe you have a hand when you just call preflop and check-raise the flop. It 'looks' to your opponent more like the flop hit you and you have a real hand. Often if you 3-bet preflop they don't believe u and keep calling.

Additionally, I think this is a good flop to bluff at. You act first. there is no real likely draw out. There is only one card in the 'zone'. If he doesn't have a king he'll be hard-pressed to keep calling.

-Scott

[DanZ]

not 3 betting preflop is criminal. What you did postflop was fine to do once , with or without the tell from the BB. They can't call 2 without a K, and the maniac will release a lot of hands on the turn. Yuo are risking 1 big bet to win 3.5 or 2 to win 4, so if it works 1/3 of the time, it shows a profit (probably more like 25-30% since you could outdraw a hand, esp. a small pair).

Dan Z.

[gaylord focker]

I think I agree that even know I likely have the best hand preflop, considering my position and the aggresiveness of my opponent folding might be best. I think three betting is also OK too, probably a slightly better option calling. Honestly, I had two face cards, they were both the same color, and the other guy stunk, so, I wanted to play.

Anyhow the reason I posted this hand was because I have been thinking a lot about trying to take advantage of someone who has raised from late position and is likely to hold a number of differnent hands. When the flop comes down with a queen or king on board, and the other two cards are small, I think playing aggresively in these spots probably shows a profit, esspecially with a tight image. Preflop raisers, even from the cutoff or button seem much more likely to play back and over represent thier hand when the flop comes down all rags, or when the ace hits. So I guess I was just curious to get some other opinions. If anything, I think I probably make a few too many laydowns, and play a bit on the ABC side, so I'm trying to work on taking advantage of how my oppenents percive me at the table.

[astroglide]

how do you know you have the best hand? K2o and 44 are better hands. furthermore, he has position on you.

[TaintedRogue]

There's a little maniac in almost all of us. Kinda like putting $20 on boxcars on the crap table. Nice shot.

[gaylord focker]

I dont know I have the best hand. But if you took all the combinations of all the hands he would raise with in that spot, I bet I am ahead the majority of the time. That being said, I agree it's probably a fold, it's very tough to play out of position agaist a preflop raiser who is going to play his hand aggresively. However, with the game often being 6-7 handed, I do have to defend at least some of the time so he doesnt feel he can rob me every time it is folded to him. Perhaps the best option was fold, follwed by raise, follwed by my preflop action, which was calling.

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
But if you took all the combinations of all the hands he would raise with in that spot, I bet I am ahead the majority of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
so you believe he raises with qx/jx or worse a majority of the time? unless he's a blind stealing machine, i would expect the standard 'always ax, always a pair, usually any 2 broadway cards, sometimes kx'. you're only beating qt/jt out of that whole group, you're out of position, and the onus is on you to either hit the flop or put money in with nothing. of course, you know his raising standards much better than i do.

he's trying to rob the big blind more than you. i realize the game is 7-handed, but you have queen high, and you will have your own stealing opportunities beginning with the next hand.

[DanZ]

How many players are will to take Kx or Ax to a showdown regularly?

THere are later bets, and hands like tiny pairs, Ax and Kx anren't worth nearly what they appear when this is factored in.

Dan Z.

[astroglide]

they are superior hands hot and cold, and superior hands with position. i'm not ignoring what's in-between the preflop and the river.