burning up chips or playing expertly? you decide!

[mike l.]

here's an 8-16 hand that caught be surprise.

i was imitating a nit just sitting there on my nit ass acquiring hours in a delectable 9 handed live game the other day. i got a free look (isnt this how so many messes start) in the bb w/ 8h6d. 5 of us see the flop.

Tc 9h 4s checked around.

the turn is 8c. checked to last player very loose fellow and pretty aggro and pretty awful. he bets, i checkraise. folded to him and he calls.

the river is 6c. i bet, he raises, and i decide he doesnt know how to raise there without having me beat so i fold.

[haakee]

If he's pretty aggro I don't like folding to the river raise with two pair getting 9.5:1.

[sweetzer]

You're getting 10:1 odds on calling the raise on the river, so you have to be right over 90% of the time to make this fold. Most likely you were correct, but over 90%, I don't think so. I would have called. Even maniacs know some good moves, they just don't have the patience to play less hands.

[Diplomat]

When you say pretty aggressive, I assume you mean he will bet a variety of hands on the turn such as flush and straight draws. And by loose, he might have some wierd two-pair hand by the river, or would call your turn raise with very little. I'll also assume that if he flat out bluffed the turn that he would fold.

Based on those assumptions, I like the turn checkraise.

Also, in the absense of a read to the contrary, or more information about the player (if he will bluff-raise the river here, what he thinks about you...but you already commented on that..so nevermind.) I think this is a pretty easy fold on the river. Despite the decent pot odds, I don't think you have enough here to call.

I also think you need to bet the river instead of check/calling if he will call with hands like A8, etc., but not bet them.

-Diplomat

[gaylord focker]

16 dollars= half a tank of gas= fold.

[SA125]

Based on the description of his loose play, aside from all the other possibilities, here's 2 hands I can see him playing in that situation. A7 & A8.

He limps on blind, sees turn for free, bets out to try and win on turn. He calls on turn because he still has A left and is open ended w/7 or pair w/top kicker w/8. You bet out on river and he raises with the winner 7 or with what he feels is the winner 8/kicker because he thinks 6 was a blank for you and you're just continuing to show strength on your ch/r.

The thing I don't understand about not making the crying call on the river is this - if you're willing to pay $16 on the river by trying to take it down, why not ch/c and take down the winner if you're in fact best?

Checking 2p in that situation is like playing with scared money, but isn't that better than turning all your bets up to that point into dead money without a showdown? Especially against a loose player? I honestly don't see why, for $16, b/f is a better option than ch/c.

[mike l.]

"He limps on blind, sees turn for free, bets out to try and win on turn. He calls on turn because he still has A left and is open ended w/7 or pair w/top kicker w/8. You bet out on river and he raises with the winner 7 or with what he feels is the winner 8/kicker because he thinks 6 was a blank for you and you're just continuing to show strength on your ch/r."

youre overanalysing the (im)possible thinking of a very loose, somewhat aggressive bad losing player. when i said i figured he could not raise me on the river with less than a hand that beats me i meant it, several of you seem to be ignoring that. (nevertheless, it still may be right for me to check-call the river so i can induce a bluff!)

"The thing I don't understand about not making the crying call on the river is this - if you're willing to pay $16 on the river by trying to take it down, why not ch/c and take down the winner if you're in fact best?"

in this case i felt it was right to bet because i put him on a lesser hand that he would call me with. in retrospect, thinking about the flop check-around i realise there are very few hands he can hold that would fit the bill so he is most likely on a draw on the turn, all of which just got there. so the best play wouldve been check-fold. so was check-call the second best or bet-fold?

anyways i thought the turn play was more interesting than the river.

[SA125]

You're right about my thoughts on the player. I just saw a guy cold call 2 bets on the blind with 72s. He hit his flush and won too. Unreal. So when you said loose, I guess you didn't mean coming apart at the seams.