Trips on the flop, fold it?

[bakku]

i've been playing online poker for about 2 weeks now and have been reading the forums for about a week. i've finally mustered up the courage to make a post, -constructive- criticism appreciated /images/graemlins/smile.gif


UB .50/1, 2 hours ago
BB plays tight,
no other good reads


pre-flop
EP1 limps, EP2 limps, MP1 limps, bakku raises with 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif in MP2, button BB EP1 EP2 MP1 all call, 6 players to the flop


flop
2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

crap. i haven't won a single set that i've hit on the flop in the 12 straight hours i've been playing and i'm practically on tilt :P


BB checks, EP1 bets, EP2 folds, MP1 calls, bakku raises, button calls, BB calls, EP1 reraises, MP1 calls, bakku...


Please let me know how you would have played this hand up to this point. (yes, i already know i didn't play it well, lol) do i fold the reraise on the flop? i'm guessing yes. should i have raised in the first place? should i have raised PF?

[balkii]

Preflop: I have aggressive tendencies and will raise 88 anytime I am first in, or when I am in late position. In this middle position with 3 limpers to you, I would probably just limp to encourage even more limpers. You dont have much chance of buying the button from this far away so theres another reason.

FLop: LOL DO NOT FOLD. You are something like a 1.5:1 dog to fill by the river. With 3 other players in the pot, you can cap the flop for major value, EVEN if a player turned over his Ace-high flush. If 3 players are still hanging around on the turn you can cap for value there too.

River: by the time you get there the pot is gonna be enormous. I probably wouldnt fold, even if you dont fill. (unless of course a player had shown you his A-high flush earlier)

[AliasMrJones]

I'm no expert, but here's what I'd do.

88 with limpers I'd limp PF and hope for the set, dumping it if my set doesn't come through. On the flop, well you can't win 'em all. The other raiser could easily be on a draw with a lone A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. He's a 2-1 shot to get another heart for the nuts by the river and there are enough people along for the ride to make a raise here correct for him. A made flush is also, of course, possible. You're about 3-1 to make a full house or better by the river so I'd cap it here and then call the turn and river. Whether I make it to the river and call a river bet depends on what cards fall and the later action. If no more scare cards fall and noone else starts raising I'm probably seeing this through to the showdown.

Also, this post belongs in the micro-limit forum.

[chesspain]

PF: With three limpers already before you, I would probably just limp with 88, and realize that I would likely need to spike a set to win.

Flop: You need to at least call the three-bet, or possibly even cap it. You may only be up against the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif at this point. Furthermore, even if you are already up against a made flush, you have ten outs to fill-up by the river. Hence, there will be no folding before the river!.

[joker122]

Hi,

Ironically, I relish the times when I flop a set on a suited board (such as in your situation) and I'm fairly certain someone has already made thier flush (also like in your situation). I call the turn and the river to see if the board pairs. The reason for this is simple - the implied odds are enormous. First of all you have 7 outs after the flop (1 eight for quads, and 3 twos, 3 nines for a boat) which you will make about 28% of the time (so you're not as much as an underdog as you might think). Also, if the turn does not pair the board you have actually picked up outs! This is because whatever card has fallen you have the 3 other cards of that value that will help your hand.

As I mentioned above, the implied odds are great because after you've made a boat someone with a king high or ace high flush will give you plenty of action.

[el_grande]

My apologies if you already know this but:
A set is when you have a pocket pair. Trips is when the pair is on board.

I mention this because you should never fold a set. The chances where it is correct to fold are so rare that it's better to just live by that rule. The times your hand is good when you didn't think it was will outweigh those times you should have folded.

[bernie]

cap the flop.

no way in hell im folding this. the cards would have imprints of my fingers if someone tried to take them away from me on this flop.

you have a possible 10 out draw here. that's better than a flush draw. would you fold a nut flush draw with this action on a 2 tone flop?

b

[Mike Gallo]

Welcome aboard Bakku,

do i fold the reraise on the flop? i'm guessing

You should cap the flop.

You have outs.

Repost this in the micro forum.

[bakku]

thanks for the advice everyone, and for the redirection to the microlimits forum..i didn't even know it was there actually

pre-flop
EP1 limps, EP2 limps, MP1 limps, bakku raises with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif in MP2, button BB EP1 EP2 MP1 all call, 6 players to the flop


flop
2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif

crap. i haven't won a single set that i've hit on the flop in the 12 straight hours i've been playing and i'm practically on tilt :P


BB checks, EP1 bets, EP2 folds, MP1 calls, bakku raises, button calls, BB calls, EP1 reraises, MP1 calls, bakku calls, button and BB call

turn
2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif

everyone checks to button who bets, BB raises, everyone calls

river
2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif

gets capped of course..

button flips over J /images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif
BB has J /images/graemlins/heart.gif A /images/graemlins/heart.gif
EP1 has 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

and i win the biggest pot the table has seen in the last 12 hours /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[37offsuit]

I would have raised preflop. You can't fold this hand for a number of reasons. The first is that while it's entirely possible that one or more of your opponents holds two hearts, it's also possible that the raiser holds the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif and is drawing to the nut flush figuring to make a lot off the pot if it hits. Maybe he has a hand like A hearts 9x and he has added insentive to bang the pot. The other two could be on smaller flush draws or playing a made flush conservatively figuring they can always strike on the river if another heart doesn't fall. Here if the board pairs, you're in the driver seat though, especially because you have position on the raiser and will get your raise on the turn or river.

You have 7 clean outs on the turn (3 - deuces, three nines and one eight). If the board doesn't pair then, you'll have another three outs for the turned X. You also have a heart in hand so if another heart does fall, you still improve.

And since you asked, and this is just my personal opinion, if the turn comes blank (no heart, no boat for you), I'd get into a war with the flop raiser to try and push the others out if I had a read on the table that I could. The reason for this is that you'll get a lot more money in the pot from those who get caught in the cross fire and then fold when it gets three bet and it's likely you're going to cap, yet they still haven't made their hands.

It also makes it so that if a heart does fall on the end, you'll have to call it down because of the size of the pot. There is always the possibility that this guy limped with 45 /images/graemlins/heart.gif or some similar low suited connecting hand and your 8 is good.

[Ed Miller]

Folding on the flop is absurd. You should read HPFAP.

[josie_wales]

[ QUOTE ]
cap the flop.

you have a possible 10 out draw here. that's better than a flush draw. would you fold a nut flush draw with this action on a 2 tone flop?

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Bernie,

VERY well put. While I too would have stayed -- in fact capped the flop-- I just really like the way you put that.

jw

[bakku]

i'm fairly new to hold 'em, so i will be making some mistakes still. i ordered a couple of books last week and will be reading up as soon as they are delivered..and thanks for the book suggestion, i'll get that one next

[GuyOnTilt]

I would've 3-bet the turn.

GoT

[Analyst]

[ QUOTE ]

turn
2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif

everyone checks to button who bets, BB raises, everyone calls


[/ QUOTE ]

Just to expand on Chesspain 's post - at this point you're getting an incremental 4:1 on your bets. With 10 outs to make either a full house or quads, you're 3.6:1 against winning the pot, so you're ahead of the game and have to stay in or better still, raise.

[Jezebel]

In loose games where players play tend to go to far with their hand after the flop regardless of the size of the pot, I prefer limping with medium pairs. The reason to raise with middle pairs after limpers is to "tie" them to the pot by making it so big that they stick around and pay you off. If your opponents are going to chase regardless of the size of the pot, this preflop raise is not worth it in my opinion.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd get into a war with the flop raiser to try and push the others out if I had a read on the table that I could. The reason for this is that you'll get a lot more money in the pot from those who get caught in the cross fire and then fold when it gets three bet and it's likely you're going to cap, yet they still haven't made their hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

if someone is 3 betting/capping the turn with you, you're likely behind to a flopped flush and have to hit your hand to win. why would you get in a war for the purpose of getting hands out that will be possibly hitting their hand when you hit yours and will pay you off? you want those hands in.

you want them to call during this raising war, not fold. even then you want at least 4-5 opponents to jam this on the turn. otherwise you're just blowing chips.

that said, i'd raise the turn once if a blank hits. then see how many opponents are left if it comes back to me 3 bet.

b

[bernie]

if i read this right, you have 4 opponents you could raise here. though i would prefer 5 just in case some outs are taken.

the ace high flush got a little too enamored with his hand if he capped this river. especially after everyone just called his turn c/r. does he really think they're trying to blow him off his hand?

b

[Justaloser]

do i fold the reraise on the flop? i'm guessing yes.

Why do you guess yes?
The only hands you're behind right now would be a flopped flush (it happens 1% of the time someone holds suited cards)
or 99. And even if someone has the flush, you've got outs to beat them.

The raises could be from someone holding an overpair, top pair, the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif, maybe even the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif, two pair or a straight draw.

Right now you have 6 outs to the second best possible hand, and 1 to the mortal nuts.

I'm calling and seeing the turn.

should i have raised in the first place?

I think so. You're trying to get out the lone /images/graemlins/heart.gif's that might beat you if you don't improve.

And keep in mind that if you miss the turn, you get three more outs.

should i have raised PF?

That depends more on your style of play. But do not think that a preflop raise will limit the field at a .50/$1 table.

If you cannot let go of your hand if you raise preflop and miss, then don't raise.

[bakku]

ace high flush open bets the river, i raise, he 3-bets, i cap. the other 2 call each raise like clockwork, i get a nice pot

[37offsuit]

I want them out because there's a chance the original raiser limped with something like 45 suited and that the other hands are drawing to either the flush with a high heart or the straight with something like J10. My set is vulnerable to a lot of different turn and river cards unless it improves. Especially if he's still betting out and reraising on the turn, I'd guess this guy already has his flush. Everyone else still limping along is on a draw, either with a high heart or the open ended straight draw.

The way I would play this is the same as the "schooled" philosophy, if enough opponents get to the river, then you're more likely to get outdrawn.

Now, in this case we know the results so it's easy to say "see, someone had the nut flush already" but with that many limpers, all sorts of hands were equally possible, especially since he didn't challenge them preflop to find out.

In this situation though, I would have preflop raised and could then have a bit better read on my opponents to know that my 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif likely isn't going to play. Then I would play much differently.

[bakku]

i did raise pf /images/graemlins/smile.gif
table was pretty loose except BB who was tight-weak

[dirty_dan]

If you're relying on filling up then why knock out anybody that will contribute to the pot if you do hit your draw? You want to keep them all in. Not only that, but you want all their draws to hit too!

Also the preflop raise is going to do anything to define anyone's hand. You have some limpers already, they'll all call your raise. Opponents behind you know the limpers will call so they're more apt to cold-call. You're guaranteed a multiway pot with a middle pair that most likely won't be able to go past the flop. Limp and try to hit your set. Raising preflop is just killing your implied odds.

[bernie]

again, what is he putting you on when you raise the river after calling the turn? way too overplayed for a nut flush.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
But do not think that a preflop raise will limit the field at a .50/$1 table.


[/ QUOTE ]

a raise preflop isnt necesarily meant to limit the field in this case.

b

[bernie]

if someone is in a raise war on the turn, it's usually a made hand. meaning a flush. if it is, what does it matter if a str8 draw is there or a singleton high flush card? you want them to call. you wont care if they hit their hand since you're behind already and teh str8 is drawing dead.

[ QUOTE ]
The way I would play this is the same as the "schooled" philosophy, if enough opponents get to the river, then you're more likely to get outdrawn.


[/ QUOTE ]

again, if someone is jamming the turn, you're usually the one drawing.

with alot of action on a mono board thru the turn, if you cant lay down an 8 high flush with a 4 suit board, you may have a leak. do you really think it would be good? these opponents would really have to be overplaying on a 4 card mono board to consider this.

when i flop a set on a board like this, i figure im behind. but im still capping the flop and betting or raising (once) on the turn(mono board). and it's certainly not to knock players out who may be drawing slim/dead.

b

[bernie]

you can raise this preflop. many players will misread your set if you hit it if you do this than if you limp, then go nuts on a raggedy board.(if the flop was raggedy)

but say it's raggedy but with a draw or 2 and you go nuts on the flop. they may still just think you have an overpair. which could entice smaller one pairs that caught the flop to come along to hit their 5 outer.

you may also have the best hand at the moment. though that is a weaker argument for it.

b

[Chris Daddy Cool]

you simply can't fold this here.

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
you simply can't fold this here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Chris. Really, thanks for bumping my first ever post on the 2+2 forums.

[MicroBob]

An oldie but a goodie.

I'm impressed.

Just a few months from a thinking-fish with much to learn to a winning player (I assume) with a solid understanding of the game.


I was there too, longer ago than you were.....and I think you have a better grasp on the game then I do.
You certainly have a pretty fast learning curve.
Plus, I get a little lazy about my studying sometimes.


My first SS post was in July I think (maybe August).
I had 66 on button on board of 5684 vs. 2 opponents (small pot).

MP bets, MP+1 raises - naturally, I fold because I just KNOW when I'm beat.

River is the case 6.
The raiser was bluffing with KJs.


I was politely informed by someone here that I played my hand like a retard.
I think it was BobT (although I'm not sure) who slowed down enough to explain that even in a small pot (my justification for folding) I need to call and pursue my full-house outs.