Will I Ever Get There ?!?!

[BIGRED]

I'm new to poker and to this forum. I see many interesting posts and hope to learn a thing or two from you guys.

I've been reading thru some of your personal poker stories and it hard to believe what I'm reading. I haven't read every post here, but it seems there are many more people winning than losing... well, I guess if you're losing you wouldnt post as willingly.

Anyway, my question is this... I've been playing online for about 6 months and I'm no way near what some of you guys are winning. I mean, I read stories like going from $100 to $100K in 1 year... unbelievable.

I know I have many areas of my game I need to improve to be a winning player, but what advice can some of you guys give me so that I can get there some day.

Just to give you my poker background... I've been playing casually all my life, but got serious about it since 1 year ago. I've been playing mostly on-line and so far I'm in the negative for about 2K.

I have steady win streaks, but more losing steaks that keep me in the negative. I want to hear stories of how some of you winning players actually started winning. You all couldn't have been winning from day 1.

I also want to hear from some of you LOSERS out there. C'mon, be honest, share your misery.

[wayabvpar]

We all have bad beat stories, and most of us have gone on hideously bad streaks were the cards just won't cooperate, so there isn't much point in whining about it. Posting specific hands or patterns so others can help pinpoint leaks in one's game is the more usual form the 'loser' posts take.

Plus- winning is more fun, and people like to share their triumphs (and to do a little bragging as well! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif ).

[Zele]

To "get there" you need many things, but off the top of my head I'd say always be reading and thinking about the game, and get as much playing experience as you can. When you are playing, try to never get distracted. A good measure of the effectiveness of your sessions from a learning standpoint is how many hands you can remember and analyze after the fact. Learning the game takes a lot of psychological strength, particularly because your skill improvements may not translate into concrete results for a long time due to variance.

What books have you read/are you reading?

Short answer: if you're willing to work very hard and suffer a lot of psychological torment, then yes, you'll get there.

[J_V]

I'm not sure if it was my story you read, but I started playing poker freshman year in college. I started wanting to play after watching Rounders like many others (I can't believe I'm admitting that /images/graemlins/smile.gif). I had $80 dollars or so to gamble with and I started playing with my friends. I lost $40 my first session. The next session, I broke even. Then I won 17 in a row. It took me 1 year to make 2,000. It took me 1 more year to make 10k. I'm 23 now and I will likely hit the half a million mark sometime this year.

If I had to do it over again, I think I would likely bust my $80 dollars before I ever got started. I was very fortunate early in my poker career.

My advice is that you need to be able to understand everything everyone says about poker in this forum and be able to evaluate for yourself whether or not what they are doing has merit. If you don't understand what someone is thinking or saying in a post, you probably have problems with your game. Find out who the good posters are, if you are disagreeing with them, you just have to accept the fact that there are things you don't understand. If you don't enjoy reading about the game or learning it, and just enjoy playing it, you have no chance.

For the first two years of my playing, poker was like 90% of my life. I spent almost all of my free time either playing or thinking about poker.

I learned under ideal circumstances. I had friends who were better, who taught me. I found this forum right away.
I had friends who moved up the limits and took the tumbles before I had to. I have another friend whose story is pretty much the same as mine except he went broke twice along the way and was in the hole 10k at one point. Most young kids don't have the funds to let that happen. I know I didn't. The most important thing I did in the beginning was that I never spent one dollar of my poker winnings. I realized that to move up, I couldn't jeopardize my bankroll in any way.

Online poker should make it much easier and faster for young kids to make serious money playing poker. However, it makes it easy for them to lose also, if they aren't good enough.

There's just too much advice to give. If you have specific questions you can PM me, but I'd say first and foremost you need to find a winning player who you can talk poker with. I learned the most by picking the brains of winning players on my way up.

[J_V]

[ QUOTE ]
Short answer: if you're willing to work very hard and suffer a lot of psychological torment, then yes, you'll get there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that is pretty much it.

[bisonbison]

What stakes are you playing? down 2000 playing 2/4 is a lot different than down 2000 playing 5/10.

When I started playing last fall, I was as much as $300 down playing .5/1 on party. Then I began to figure things out, and I've made $1000 in the last 4 months playing LL hold em, NLHE, and some PLO. Come over to the microlimits forum and post some hands. We're here to help.

[JPNet]

Seems to me that if you are relatively new, feel that you have a lot to learn, and at the moment are a losing player, you should start at the very micro limits. You can get a lot of experience, post a lot of hands and learn a great deal while playing .05/.10, .10/.20 or .25/.50 and at the same time lose a lot less than 2k. i.e. the lessons are cheaper.

[tomcain]

Hello

I started playing in sept, 03 when I first saw the wsp on espn. I never played much poker in my life. I used to play a lot of bridge.

I started in the free games for 1 month. won 5k play money before I made my first real money deposit on 10/3/03. I was playing pretty much the hellmuth system since that was the only book I had read.

I fairly quickly lost $200. I picked up some more books, TOP, HP and HPFAP. For a month or so i played pretty much even. I tried some of the slansky stuff for loose games and lost another 2-300.

On dec 6, I changed my strategy by merging hellmuth and slansky.

Here are the things I took quite seriously from HPFAP and retained for low limit games
1. if your hand is worth a check and a call, it is worth a bet. Being agressive makes a big difference at low limits. At a lot of tables I win pots just by betting, especially if they see you only play good cards or win several pots.

2. semi-bluffing. if your table image is aggressive, semi-bluffing works.

3. free cards - by being aggresive, people will check to you and you can decide to bet or check.

4. Betting to see where you are. Works better that I would have thought.

Here are things which don't work in low limit games, IMHO:

1. slow-playing - I have lost multiple flop flushes, even A high trying this.

2. full bluffs - rarely does this work

I started winning at .25/.50 immediately. On about jan 20, I went into the black overall and have moved up to mostly .50/$1.00 and some 1/2. I also started using pokertracker as this forum has suggested.

Good luck tom

[umdpoker]

jv, if you don't mind sharing, what level of poker do you play? half a million is a lot of money to make in one year. do you play no limit? or do you just play high limit? short table or full table? thanks.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Ok you want losing stories?
I'm not much of a on line player as my computer really sucks, but in terms of live games

the very first time i ever played hold'em at a casino, i won $300 at 3/6 thinking it was sooo easy. so the next time i went i thought i could jump up to the higher limits so i played a 6/12 table and dropped over $500 and couldn't quite believe how overmatched i was. i dropped back down to 3/6 quite humbled but found that i was still pretty much a loser.
then i started reading books and just playing by myself, testing myself, practicing, an hour or so a day just sitting there looking at flops, starting hands, what if cases...
now couple years later, i'm a consistent winner paying my way through college through poker.

my advice is: read books, practice, and patience. one day it'll come if you really want it to

[BIGRED]

[ QUOTE ]

What books have you read/are you reading?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm reading Hold'em Poker by Skalansky... seems like that's the book to read.

[J_V]

I didn't mean 500k this year, I meant in lifetime earnings. Even if I played 50 hrs a week (right now its about 20), I couldn't make that. I play lots of games at once on the internet, either 15/30, 30/60 and a little 100-200.

To make 500k on the internet, i think you'd have to be a heads up or shorthanded shark, and I am neither despite my best efforts.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm reading Hold'em Poker by Skalansky... seems like that's the book to read.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Hold'em Poker" is a good book, but the one you need to get eventually is "Hold'Em Poker for Advanced Players" by Sklansky and Malmuth and hopefullt in a month or 2 when it is released "Hold'Em Poker for Low Limits" by S&M and our very own MajorKong.

[Joe Tall]

How much time do you spend on your game? Do you analyze your play? Do you down load hand histories and comb over every check/bet/fold to try to find leaks? Do you post hands on the forum that you had trouble with to find leaks? Do you talk/drink/eat/think poker with friends that can help you? Do you read a little every day? Do you have a library of books to choose from? Do you answer posts no matter how confident your answer is, hoping to be corrected? Do you play muliple levels from micro-limits to mid/high-limits?

I can answer, "Yes" to all the above questions. I'm sure this and more has made me a winning player.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[BIGRED]

J V, Yes, it is stories like your I find very hard to believe. I guess no one can be told what the "matrix" is. You just have to see it for yourself...

I see that you are dedicated to your craft and have a lot of support around you. Unfortunately for me, I don't have any good players to bounce off ideas nor do I eat and sleep poker. In fact, I have a regular job, which I not about to quit anytime soon in place of poker... My wife is totally against me playing on-line. So I have to sneak in my playing time at my office before and after work. So far, it hasn't been easy. Sometimes i wonder if I'm becoming a gambling junkie... But than I hear stories like yours and I feel like maybe I can do it too if I just work at it.

Towards that end, I've been lurking at this forum and reading some books. But so far, it has been a solo effort. If I look back at my 1 yr of playing live and on-line, I definitely see a huge improvement in my choice of hands and my play now than before. But I know I will still get outplayed against a tougher player. I think, aside from my playing technique, my biggest weakness is psychology. I definitely have tough time dealing with bad beats and thus am very prone to going on tilt and just making the losing streak worse. I wonder if you have any advice for this... other than just decipline.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your story, although I'm still very skeptical. If your story is true, I wonder what % of real serious players can claim what you say...

Best wishes on your quest...

P.S. Do you by some off chance play at PartyPoker and have a handle that is 12 characters long, with "H" and "D" in it?

[BIGRED]

[ QUOTE ]
What stakes are you playing? down 2000 playing 2/4 is a lot different than down 2000 playing 5/10.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been jumping around limits and played everything from .5/1 to 30/60. When I played 30/60 for about a week 2 months ago, I had a real hot streak and felt like I was playing at a different level, but inevitably, I hit a cold streak that totally humbled me. I didn't know how to stop the bleeding. I've since learned from that experience and now I've been playing at 1/2, 2/4, sometimes 5/10. Some of you might say that this is even too advanced for me... But in all honesty, I can't see a huge difference in the level of play between low and high limits. There are good players and bad players everywhere.



[/ QUOTE ]Come over to the microlimits forum and post some hands. We're here to help.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will take this advaice... In fact I have two hands from this morning at PartyPoker which i want some of you guys to analyze for me. I will post the hands in the "Small Stakes" forum since they were played at 2/4 table.

[BIGRED]

[ QUOTE ]

How much time do you spend on your game?


[/ QUOTE ]
I play mostly at Party 3-4 hr/day, 5 days/wk.

[ QUOTE ]

Do you analyze your play? Do you down load hand histories and comb over every check/bet/fold to try to find leaks? Do you post hands on the forum that you had trouble with to find leaks? Do you talk/drink/eat/think poker with friends that can help you?


[/ QUOTE ]
I have not done this extensively. I wish I had a mentor or a friend who can do this with me. I will try to utilize this forum to start analyzing my plays. In fact I will post 2 hands from this moring at 2/4 Party under "Small Stakes".

[ QUOTE ]

Do you read a little every day? Do you have a library of books to choose from?


[/ QUOTE ]
So far, the only book I read is Hold'em Poker. I think I need to read it several more times to totally digest the concepts. And as someone else mentioned, I will pick up Hold'em for Advanced after.

[ QUOTE ]

Do you answer posts no matter how confident your answer is, hoping to be corrected?


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not ashamed to say I'm currently a losing player. So bring on the criticism (constructive that is)

[ QUOTE ]

Do you play muliple levels from micro-limits to mid/high-limits?


[/ QUOTE ]
I stay away from high limits as I have been humbled at those level during my early naive and arrogant days. I stick to mostly small stakes... Micros are too slow and too "unreal" for me. I feel that I don't take it as seriously at "nickels and dimes" level as I would at 1/2, or 2/4.

[LetsRock]

OK - This is going to sound brutal and cruel, but it is coming from an angle of wanting to be helpful as if you were a close friend of mine.

If you've been playing poker seriously for a year and are down $2K, you are in serious trouble. You don't mention what levels you're playing at, but if you're playing low levels and losing that much then you either A: haven't really been serious or B: you really, really suck!

My first impression is that you are one of masses that supply the money for the rest of us. You think you know what you're doing, but you're really clueless.

I'm not saying it's not possible to be down a little ( a break even player will up or down a little on any given day - but $2K down? That is out of control.

My suggestion is either you:

really get serious, do lots of reading, lots of play analysis, lots of posting (here), lots of practice (either play money, with friends or a computer program) and lots of brutally honest self evaluation reagrding the ways you played a hand

- or - give it up.

I imagine about half the people here are cringing that I might be chasing a fish away, but this forum is about helping people and if a freind of mine came to me with this question this is exactly what I would tell him/her.

If you have too much money and have fun giving it away then by all means ignore everything I've said. If you get lots of entertainment value out of it and that's all you want, then stick with it. Otherwise, have a good long talk with yourself and either get REALLY serious about improving your game or find another hobby. There's plenty of resources for help, but you have to do the work of learning and understanding the game. The first thing is to know specifically what part of the game is troubling you and ask specific questions about it; it's hard to help someone with a general "how do I get better?" question.

Best of luck to you on whatever you decide to do.

[LetsRock]

[ QUOTE ]
My wife is totally against me playing on-line. So I have to sneak in my playing time at my office before and after work. So far, it hasn't been easy. Sometimes i wonder if I'm becoming a gambling junkie...

[/ QUOTE ]

This bothers me.

[cjx]

[ QUOTE ]
Micros are too slow and too "unreal" for me. I feel that I don't take it as seriously at "nickels and dimes" level as I would at 1/2, or 2/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're down ~2k and you are concerned or even convinced that you are currently a losing player. I was in your shoes about 6 months ago though I was only down ~1k...

How did I recover?

I got humble and practiced patience and discipline. Start abusing the sign up bonus system as much as possible to begin recouping your losses. Play and beat the .5-1 game to the tune of about +$1k. One bet is one bet no matter what limit you play and I think that's something you need to accept, play with patience and discipline... you aren't playing for a living so you don't need a certain income... the gambler (loose tilting losing player) in you wants to up the stakes. I'd skip HPFAP for now and grab Lee Jones's Winning Low Limit Hold'Em... you are not an advanced player yet and the players you play against aren't likely to be either... master your ABC's at low limits against attrocious players.

I'd also suggest Theory of Poker before HPFAP.

cjx

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
So bring on the criticism (constructive that is)

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to say it's the posters that can take it on the chin and stick around that become winning players, so here it goes...

[ QUOTE ]
Micros are too slow and too "unreal" for me. I feel that I don't take it as seriously at "nickels and dimes" level as I would at 1/2, or 2/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unreal? I teach poker using my account at a few of the mirco-sites to my roomate and 2 of my friends. I preached to them over and over, if they could not beat the .25/.50 on PokerStars they would lose playing 3/6 on Party.

My roomate and one of my friends, listened.

However, the other did not. The other said to me this weekend, "I've quit online-poker by the way." I said, "How much did you lose?" and smiled /images/graemlins/grin.gif. He grunted and said, "enough". I said, "why did you lose?". He said, "They all just suck out there, they stay with anything." Then I said, "Yes, the losing players do suck." /images/graemlins/smirk.gif and grinned.

You should start off trying to beat a micro-online game and build up a bankroll. Yes, it's slow and frustrating, but the lessons learned will be very valuable as you move up in limits.

I'll keep an eye out for your posts.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Christoferj]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My wife is totally against me playing on-line. So I have to sneak in my playing time at my office before and after work. So far, it hasn't been easy. Sometimes i wonder if I'm becoming a gambling junkie...

[/ QUOTE ]

This bothers me.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is very hard for me to win if i play short seesion maybe this have been the problem ?

I dont have any poker friends in real life but i have gotten some really nice 2+2 friends over msn and its works perfect for me i can ask during a hand what to do or ask after what i did wrong or right or ask like my table is very loose can i play this 9Js

[scotnt73]

i only play about 20 hours a week mostly 1-3 hour sessions. you do not need to play long sessions to win. Im currently playing 1$/2$ 6max shorthanded games and making a small consistent profit over the last 6 months. you seem to be in denial that you are a losing player. until you stop making excuses about why you are losing(ie your wife, the rake, short sessions, stupid fish, yada yada) you will never improve. yes the games are beatable but i bet 75% of the guys i beat consistantly online and have tagged as fish think they are a good player.

FYI-i lost a total of 600$ before i really cracked down. i am now up 2200$ total. 9 months total (online only playtime, ive never played live ever) with the last 5 months me being serious about it. i have a good full time job that im not leaving for poker either but i like the extra money im making until i hit 3000$ and jump into the 5/10 shorthanded at party.

Good Luck

[Gamblor]

online only playtime, ive never played live ever

Wow. Why bother?

Online is a substitute for the real thing.

[BIGRED]

[ QUOTE ]

you seem to be in denial that you are a losing player. until you stop making excuses about why you are losing(ie your wife, the rake, short sessions, stupid fish, yada yada) you will never improve


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why you say that I'm in denial... I said I'm a losing player and need to improve. As far as my situation is concerned, I was just giving a sense of what my playing conditions are, not making excuses.

[BIGRED]

What is HPFAP?

[BIGRED]

[ QUOTE ]
OK - This is going to sound brutal and cruel, but it is coming from an angle of wanting to be helpful as if you were a close friend of mine.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your honest input. I appreciate it. I have been wreckless with this in the beginning, not respecting the game nor the players I was up against, thus my current situation.

I am taking all your advice which is to study the game and post my hands here.

I just posted some hands I was thinking about from this morning over at the "Small Stakes" forum.

If you have the time, would you take a look and provide some feedback. Some have already responded, but would like some of you guys from here to take a look as well.

[LetsRock]

Sklansky's Holdem For Advanced Players

It's a great book, but I'd advise against delving into this book until you have the basics figured out.

Most of the advice is geared for the higher limit games where most of the players are paying attention to what's going on. This stuff will just get you into trouble at low limits.

[racingspider]

Hold Em Poker For Advanced Players. Check out the Abbreviations section. Good as gold there. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[racingspider]

It sounds like to me the first thing is to evaluate yourself, which you are doing. You also got in over your head. You said you played 30/60? How much did you lose playing that? You've been taking this advice pretty well, so if you don't improve soon, just take the hint that you can only play for "fun". But, you are doing well to find this site and to be honest.

[scotnt73]

[ QUOTE ]
online only playtime, ive never played live ever

Wow. Why bother?

Online is a substitute for the real thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry, i didnt mean this as a snub to live poker. i live 3 hours away from the nearest legal card room and havent gotten around to playing live. I meant it for the poster to see that i wasnt a live poker player that had just moved over to internet poker but a full blown rookie myself.

[unome]

There is something "cool" about playing live, but if you are a low limit player, non-tourney (up to lets say 15/30) and like to make money, I see very little reason to play anything but online aside from the social interaction. Rakes, dealer tips, multiple games on-line-- why would any serious player who is out to make a profit ever want to play live on a regular basis?

[Vehn]

[ QUOTE ]
The most important thing I did in the beginning was that I never spent one dollar of my poker winnings. I realized that to move up, I couldn't jeopardize my bankroll in any way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone read this a few times.

[Slacker13]

Everyone who responded and said you need to study the game is correct. When I play a 120 person NLHE tourny at a B&M I am mentally drained at the end, this is because I am concentrating on everything that is going on around me. you cannot just sit in front of a computer with general poker knowledge, clicking buttons and expect to win money.
I am a big sports bettor, i wager large amounts, so when I first started playing holdem i could not justify sitting at a $33 S&G, so i went to the 100-200$ S&G's and got my ass kicked on a regular basis. i soon realized that I was out of my league and I needed to go the low limits and I also needed to start reading poker books. I study every chance I get, when reading poker books I highlight important information and on top of that I keep extensive notes that I keep with me at all times to study during any down time. I can honestly say that I spend approx 1-2 hours per day studying this game. You have to be committed.

[Jezebel]

The one thing all consistent winners share is discipline. You can read every book on poker there is, but if you get frustrated and veer from optimal play often...you will lose in the long run. I have a buddy that has an excellent grasp of poker theory. This guy can calculate pot odds to the nth degree on the fly. He reads hands like he has X-ray glasses on. BUT....he suffers from tilt. Once he goes off his game, he is off his game for the rest of the night. If you know what the correct play is, but don't act on it, then it makes no difference how steeped in poker knowledge you are. You have just grown gills and reduced yourself to a guppie. So...if you want to win at this game you have to gain discipline. It is much easier said than done, but here are some ideas on how to gain discipline.

Read "Zen and the Art of Poker" by Larry Phillips. A good book that should help with your mindset. (Ignore the passages that he talks about streaks and playing a rush though).

Get an understanding of how little an edge a winning player has. Thats right. Winning players enjoy a very minute edge over a losing player. However, that little edge will add up over time.

Don't become results oriented. If you log a huge win, ideally you should be in the same mood as if you log a huge loss as long as you played well. Think of a pro blackjack player that ups his bet according to the count, regardless of previous results, because he knows it is the best play, not because he needs to "double up or get up". That is the mindset you are after

Emotionally detach yourself from the game. Think of yourself as more of an observer with no stake in the game. This also means not playing in stakes higher than you can afford. If you have to play in higher stakes games just to keep your interest, then thats a problem. Playing with scared money is surely a losing proposition.

Understand how long the long run really is. Also understand the streaks a winning player WILL eventually go through. Homer Simpson (2+2 poster) did an excellent post outlining the mathematical swings a winning player is going to face. Do a search in the archives for this jewel.

[J_V]

I play at Party but under a different alias than you describe.

I tilt, actually quite a bit. I don't tilt that hard though. I just raise a lot more hands from the back that I normally wouldn't. I figure if I tilt with position things can't get too bad. It'd be nice if I could stop tilting but I can't. People say when you play a lot, you get immune to the beats. I tilt WAY more now that I play full-time and have made some money than I did as a rookie. Back then I was trying to prove myself, I couldn't afford to tilt, so I didn't. My first 2 years of casino poker was pretty tilt free.

I doubt my story is that unique. I remember Vehn's screenshot of his hundo's a couple years ago. Now every one of his posts is 30-60 or higher.

To make it, you have to be good, work hard, and get lucky (to avoid busting early).

There is tons of pain along the way. The first time I lost 200 in a day I couldn't sleep. The first time I lost 1k in a day I couldn't sleep. The first time I lost 6k in a day I couldn't sleep. The month I lost 12k, I almost quit.

It's not gonna be all that easy and you have to believe in yourself as well as your poker game.

[BIGRED]

[ QUOTE ]
I play at Party but under a different alias than you describe.

I tilt, actually quite a bit. I don't tilt that hard though. I just raise a lot more hands from the back that I normally wouldn't. I figure if I tilt with position things can't get too bad. It'd be nice if I could stop tilting but I can't. People say when you play a lot, you get immune to the beats. I tilt WAY more now that I play full-time and have made some money than I did as a rookie. Back then I was trying to prove myself, I couldn't afford to tilt, so I didn't. My first 2 years of casino poker was pretty tilt free.

I doubt my story is that unique. I remember Vehn's screenshot of his hundo's a couple years ago. Now every one of his posts is 30-60 or higher.

To make it, you have to be good, work hard, and get lucky (to avoid busting early).

There is tons of pain along the way. The first time I lost 200 in a day I couldn't sleep. The first time I lost 1k in a day I couldn't sleep. The first time I lost 6k in a day I couldn't sleep. The month I lost 12k, I almost quit.

It's not gonna be all that easy and you have to believe in yourself as well as your poker game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for sharing your story... So r u playing poker full time with no other means of income? Live, on-line, both? If I may ask, how old are you and do you have a family? and are they supportive of your choice?

[LetsRock]

IMO, online isn't even close to a substitute for live. It's convenient and cheaper but other than that it doesn't hold a candle to playing live.

There is just something about handling the cards and chips and looking your adversary in the eye while you c/r him (or while he's putting a move on you!).

I tilt way less live than I do on-line as well.

I'm not knocking on-line playing, but if there was a convenient cardroom, I'd spend a lot more time there then I would on-line.

[Cosimo]

Actually, I think it's good that someone worries that they're becoming a junkie; this is usually what it takes to keep from becoming one. Those who aren't sufficiently self-aware are more likely to fall into destructive behavior.

Also, I don't consider $2000 a big drop--but that's because that's a couple months' entertainment budget for me. So I won't judge the $2000 loss until I get more information--was that real money to you or not?

Personally, I've never lost money at online poker. I played BJ before I got into poker, so I knew the importance of records and discipline. I started at play money and stayed there until I won 5000 units. Then I moved to the UB 1c-2c game until I won consistently there (about 4000 hands). Then I moved to 25c-50c and broke even for a while before I identified holes in my game. I just recently moved to $1-2. If you play low enough, you should never go broke. I was also able to buy in for $500, which got me a $100 bonus. Five bonuses later gave me 1,000BB to cushion play at 25c-50c.

[glen]

"If you play low enough, you should never go broke. I was also able to buy in for $500, which got me a $100 bonus. Five bonuses later gave me 1,000BB to cushion play at 25c-50c."

If you play low enough, you will never go broke, but you also won't learn how to make any money worth your time playing poker. Going broke can be a valuable learning experience. If you fear losing too much, you will never have the courage to play good poker. I would advise taking you rediculously ginormous $.25-.50 wad and taking a shot at 2-4. btw, what limit blackjack did you play?

[ZeeJustin]

I'm not gonna lie, I haven't read 90% of this thread, but I haven't seen anything about raw intelligence. You need to be smart to be a winning poker player plain and simple, and it helps to be mathematically oriented. I don't know a single person that I would call very smart that has failed at poker, and I don't know a single person with average intelligence or less that has succeeded.

[J_V]

I played in college and my parents paid tuition and gave me 200 a month to live. I now play full-time mainly on-line with the occasional Vegas run. I'm 23 now and am COO of a small corporation called Sharq Management Inc. We are meddling in business acquisition and some other random projects.

My dad has supported me in whatever I decided to do my whole life. Plus he played a little poker and always used the mantra, "I don't gamble, I invest." I still vividly recall when I used to play at home. Some days my mom would ask me how I did after a long session. Normally, I would be going to bed, just as she was waking up. One night, I was on raging tilt and had gotten killed shorthanded for about five thousand. Normally, I would fib and say I lost a little - but I was sick of her asking me, how I did, so I told her I lost five thousand and I was down six, but I got a thousand back. She almost fainted and never asked me again.

[MicroBob]

first - if you like, you can pass along your party or empire poker handle. if you are playing 2-4 at party then you are possibly in my poker-tracker database....and you would definately be in the database of someone on here.

someone may already have notes on your play that they would be willing to share.


okay, the rest of the shpeel....

"I definitely have tough time dealing with bad beats and thus am very prone to going on tilt and just making the losing streak worse"

1 - if you don't find a way to overcome this you will NEVER succeed. you asked for other's advice on how to overcome tilt. i really think this is just something you're going to have to do on your own. everybod'ys personality and tilt-ability is different.
if you need to sit out for a few hands or take a deep breath or just remind yourself it was a bad beat or put a sticky-note on your computer that says 'patience, discipline' or 'stop tilting so much you big dolt' or kick your dog through a wall, etc, then do it.
but YOU have to find a way.

2. until you can beat the $0.50/1 games you are NOT ALLOWED to play anything else. if you truly want to become a winning player, then you will have to earn and learn your way up.
after you win $200 at .5/1 then, and only then, are you allowed to move up to 1/2. after you win 400 at 1/2 then, and only then, are you allowed to move up to 2/4.
if you say the games are sooooo easy and fishy that anyone can beat them, then that's great...prove it.
this stuff doesn't happen by magic. you have to successfully beat the lowewst level before you can beat any other level.

3. i also agree that Winning Low-Limit Hold-Em by Lee Jones would probably be more your speed.. I suspect you're not ready for HEFAP by Sklansky yet. besides, there;s a lot of material in HEFAP that doesn't apply as well to the low-limit games. still, it's a terrific read and it is also on the recommended list.

4. if you are able to get pokertracker i would recommend it....i don't know if this will really be convenient from your work....but if you're able to play poker online at your job then you should be able to get p-tracker. i wonder what kind of job you have that accomodates your online-poker playing lifestyle.

note - if your real-job performance is suffering, then forget all of the above and QUIT PLAYING NOW. if you don't really care or you have an employer that doesn't care too much, then happy playing and good cards AND where can I apply??

5. i bet you are not playing tight enough pre-flop and are chasing far too much post-flop. these are the most common characteristics of losing players.
if you're seeing 35% of the flops and you get excited because you just got Q-10 in early-position then you better make some adjustments. if you think that your opponenets are all so stupid that you can just bluff them, then you really need to change your game.

i know you didn't say that you do any of these things...i'm just pointing out some of the things that losing-players might do. don't know if this applies to you or not.



my brief story....
a year ago i didn't even know if a flush beat a full-house...
i lost about $700 online playing various levels.
got some books, started playing a bit better....and tighter. around a break-even player bu june or july, '03.
kept reading, and studying, and analyzing hand-histories on 2+2 (btw, dont just post your hands...read the other posts, and see if you can see the logic behind the opinions expressed on whether the play was solid or not......everyone else's hands have proved to be an outstanding learning experience for me).
in sept i was winning a bit.
now, i consider poker to be my secondary source of income....and sometimes it is a bit more than that.
in other words, there are several weeks where i make more playing party 2/4 and 10+1 SNG's then i do at my regular job (which i sometimes cut back to 20-25 hours/wk if things are going well).

in other words, i was there too. losing and losing some more...with very little clue.
it takes effort....but it is possible.
i'm certainly not where i want to be yet....but i'm pretty confident that my play is good enough to be a consistent winner and that i will continue to improve.

[Cosimo]

I'm going to echo the sentiments against HEPFAP at this stage. Raising doesn't get you heads up enough and deception is often wasted at low limits. HEPFAP is a great book, but it's for advanced players--at mid limits and higher. At lower limits, I think your time is better spent studying TOP and HEP.

I have also found WLLHE very useful. Although I believe S and/or M have issues with some of the theory and advice in WLLHE, in net I think it's great for getting you started.

[bigpooch]

It's kind of strange, but I did start winning from day one!
I got a big head start since my first real poker book I
purchased was "Winning Poker" by Sklansky and Dionne, which
later metamorphosed into "The Theory of Poker". Since the
home game was PL draw, I also read Professor Ankeny's book
on PL draw which was quite interesting too; and of course,
the library also had Zadeh's Winning Poker Systems. Later,
I was also able to borrow a friend's copy of Super System
and probably skimmed through it in a few days. Strangely,
I didn't think too much of the first holdem book Sklansky
put out and there weren't many poker books I thought were
that interesting except maybe the light "According to
Doyle" and Hayano's "Poker Faces". Of course, later I did
get HEPFAP but still didn't appreciate it that much because
the local games were ridiculously loose!

I think I also spent a few weeks in the summer (when school
was off) analyzing some draw poker situations more carefully
from a mathematical/theoretical point of view and also read
a lot more books. The biggest idea that came to my mind
while playing was not only trying to read your opponent's
hole cards, but figuring out how they thought and try to
"punish" their way of thinking. I made some incredibly
successful plays that would only work because of the way
players were thinking; and of course, I had such a big ego,
I couldn't help but try running plays against the biggest
calling stations (one of the weaknesses I inevitably cured!)
but it was part of my learning how to play poker. Quite
unfortunately for me, I relish the challenge in solving very
difficult problems, so I gravitated towards chess and bridge
and also spent some time looking at backgammon as well. I
still think chess is the best game in that it is a game of
mistakes whereas poker at times can be very forgiving!

Nowadays, I hardly "play poker" because I am just playing
several low limit games, but occasionally I have to stick my
neck out! I play pretty much ABC in ring games but much
prefer short-handed because most rocks can't survive those
games and it forces people to play; still, players play so
out of this world, they could help out NASA's problems on
Mars! /images/graemlins/smile.gif Also, most wannabe players can't even play basic
7stud, 7stud8, draw, lowball, O8, Omaha high, Razz not to
mention PL, NL, tournaments, short-handed and HU! The vast
majority seem to play the vanilla LHE (ring game or 6-max or
5-max) or NLHE tournaments and they know hardly anything
else!

My advice: read "Theory of Poker", critically look at major
leaks in your game and plug them up! Read the new edition
of HEPFAP, especially the section of Loose Games (how many
games aren't loose that are lower than 20-40?) and if and
when it becomes available, Ed Miller a.k.a. Majorkong has
coauthored a book with Sklansky and Malmuth on low limit
play that is likely worth reading. Also, if you have any
problem hands, post them here on 2+2 and I am sure you'll
get some feedback, although you'll have to be able to find
the answer through your own thinking inevitably! You'll
also need to take a dispassonate approach to the game and
just make the best decisions based on the available
information hand after hand! Also, never steam and never
play when you are significantly less than 100% and you will
be far ahead of your peers. Also, you should strive to keep
improving your game incrementally to make it much more
interesting, because after awhile, if you've seen just about
everything at the poker table, there is a danger of finding
it boring or tedious.

[bigpooch]

Being intelligent or talented is important; fortunately,
with all the loose fish out there, I am not quite sure that
it is even necessary! Nevertheless, from experience, I
definitely agree with your post!

[Ed Miller]

But in all honesty, I can't see a huge difference in the level of play between low and high limits. There are good players and bad players everywhere.

You have a lot to learn if you can't see the difference in play between low-limit and mid-limit games. While it is true that there are good players and bad players everywhere, the good players are better and far more numerous at mid-limits. The truly terrible players are far less numerous (though definitely still exist).

[Ed Miller]

I'm going to add my agreement here too, because this is a mistake that many people seem to make.

If your main goal is to build a bankroll, you simply cannot spend it. About a year ago, I decided to quit my job to play poker full-time. My bankroll was enough to play 15-30, but not much more than that. I had no illusions of ever building it any bigger just by playing poker... living off that bankroll was going to suck it dry almost no matter what I did. And it has. I have supported myself for a year, but my bankroll has actually shrunk slightly since I started.

If you spend a dollar of your bankroll now (and it is small, so you still have a lot of room to move up before you maximize your expectation) you are actually spending ten, fifty, or one hundred future dollars. That can make for a VERY expensive new TV or other toy...

(Of course it is POSSIBLE to grow your bankroll significantly while living off of it. You either have to be VERY good, get VERY lucky, or put in a ton of hours. If you are player with average, pro-level skills... do not expect to be able to spend your bankroll and still build it.)

[bigpooch]

[BLW]

i think you will be a winning player soon since it sounds like you have made the necessary steps to become one. sometimes it feels that you are the only one but many have similar stories...i learned to play on the "play" money tables before i moved into real money therefore i have been a "winning" player since i started. ive been playing consistently online for 3 months now and have moved up the stakes accordingly after being able to consistently beat that particular level. I have won over 6k playing so far and expect to continually move up in stakes as long as i feel comfortable doing so. I play pretty much everyday or everyother day and average about 80-120 hr a month. Do i come away a winner every session...no...but do so the majority of the time. From what i have learned, reading books, joining forums, and practicing either at very low limit or play money tables has helped my game tremendously...Good Luck!!!

[Cosimo]

I also started on the play money tables. I've never had to deposit money to build my bankroll back up. The only deposits that I have made have been for deposit bonuses. I've taken my time moving up because I know how big swings can be. If you don't believe in swings, then you'll go broke. An adequate bankroll is essential, and the best way to get the skills to beat one limit is to master the next lower limit.