Hand from another Forum

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Not RGP, but another poker forum. I read this and thought the poster was full of himself *and* doling out bad advice. But admittedly, as I've neen playing almost 100% NL SNGs for a while, maybe my limit analysis was rusty.

Here's the situation. B&M 2/4 game.

Hero has 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif on the button

4 limpers, he limps, blinds come along. 7 see the flop for 7 sb

Flop: 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Checked around
(3 bb)

Turn: 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB bets folded to MP who calls, hero raises, SB & MP call. (9 bb)

River: 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, MP bets, Hero raises, SB folds, MP 3-bets, Hero caps, MP calls.

MP has A /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif

Hero now explains to MP and the whole table how he knew what everybody had. MP (who is now down to the felt) gets up to leave, so Hero (expert that he is) explains to him that he should've check-called the river when the flush card paired the board.

Now am I out of touch with limit, or doesn't the nut flush have a value bet even with a paired board, and shouldn't he call a raise? (I accept that the 3-bet was a mistake).

[Tosh]

I'd always bet that river.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Now am I out of touch with limit, or doesn't the nut flush have a value bet even with a paired board, and shouldn't he call a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

You limit game is still right on. Bet and call a raise.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Festus22]

MP's biggest problem wasn't the river 3-bet, it was the preflop limp. Hero should be "correcting" MP for letting him get all the way to the turn for 1 small bet.

[el_grande]

MP has a bet-call river every time in that situation. I used to 3-bet in that situation too, but I learned my lesson quickly.

Shoulda raised PF.

(is there an echo in here?)

[Nottom]

I haven't learned my lesson yet because I would have 3-bet the river as well.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
MP's biggest problem wasn't the river 3-bet, it was the preflop limp.

[/ QUOTE ]

In January, I would limp in with AKclubs. Now that its February, I raise with AKclubs and limp with a different suit.

Stu

[Ed Miller]

I know this isn't the exact issue at hand, but it was close enough for me to write a little something that has been on my mind...

These questions seem to be very popular. "I have a monster hand, but I suspect that my opponent might have a rockcrusher. Should I 3-bet on the river, or should I just call?" On other forums, questions like this are a large proportion of their poker content. On this forum, there aren't as many, but these posts are still numerous.

There is a problem. The problem is that the answer doesn't matter. This is a simple decision: so simple that even bad players know what is going on. You have a hand, your opponent has a hand. Do you call and show it down now, or do you gamble and put in an extra bet that yours is better? There is no planning for future streets, no cards yet to come, no other opponents to worry about. Do I think my hand is better? If yes, I raise. If no, I don't.

Because the decision is simple, almost every time someone asks about it, it is close. You need to have the best hand somewhere in the sixty percent range to 3-bet (it's not 67 percent because sometimes you won't get 4-bet). So if they are asking, they probably have the best hand somewhere between 45 and 75 percent of the time. When the decision is this close, the difference between raising and calling is a small fraction of a bet.

Furthermore, this is a decision that you almost never have to make. It is rare to have a very strong hand that you would consider 3-betting with. It is even rarer that your very strong hand might be beaten. So this is a decision worth a fraction of a bet that comes up only very occasionally.

Yet people seem obsessed with it. I think there are two reasons for this:

* Big hands carry most of the emotional baggage for most players
* The decision is simple

Most players react emotionally to poker, and the hands that bring out the strongest emotions are naturally the big hands. If they win a big pot with their monster, they are elated. If they lose with a monster, they are devestated. They don't care nearly as much about their marginal hands. If they win, eh, they got lucky for a change. If they lose, their hand wasn't very good anyway. Yet it is in the play of the marginal to pretty good hands where all the money is won and lost in poker.

Second, this is the level that most players understand poker on. It's me against one other guy. I have a good hand, his might be better. I have nothing else to worry about, do I push for one more bet? There are numerous other decisions that are far more important:

* Do I raise now, or wait for the turn?
* Do I bet out, or go for a check-raise?
* Should I fold my marignal hand now before the pot gets big?
* Do I bet the turn with my marginal hand, or check it through?
* Should I raise, or go for overcalls?

Obviously, there are more important decisions than just these. Unfortunately, most players do not begin to understand how to make any of these decisions logically. Their actions are chosen by impulse, emotion, or flawed analysis. People ask about 3-betting with a big hand because that decision they understand.

Do not fall into the trap. Know which decisions matter and which ones don't. Focus your attention and questions on the important decisions, ESPECIALLY if those are the ones you aren't comfortable with or do not understand well. Time you spend thinking about whether to 3-bet the river is time mostly wasted. If you make this change, your poker game will surely improve for it.