Angleshooters at the Belle

[FeliciaLee]

Since starting my poker journal, I rarely post my "stories" here anymore. I thought, however, this one was of significant interest to the live poker community.

Friday, January 30, 2004

Glenn and I made it to the Belle early enough to get into Omaha games. We needed every minute, because it was sold out before April even made it to the last Omaha cash game table!

I lost $22 in the Omaha 8 cash game.

The Belle is making all of the tables ten handed now. This allows a few more people access to the tourneys, and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. James was worried that the regulars would complain about crowding around a nine-handed table with ten people. I told him it is like anything else, they will grumble a time or two, then just accept it and go on. That is what happens with smoking in cardrooms, and that is what will happen here. So far, no problems.

I sat next to both Larry and Betty. Betty was in a good mood, and actually cheering for me, and all of us who are high up on the WPT challenge list. I wanted to feel her forehead to see if she had a fever or something. Sometimes Betty is very nice. I shouldn't chide her so much. Most of the time, however, she is grumpy /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Larry lost every hand save one. I think he split a pot with me, or someone, right at the beginning of the tourney. After that, no matter what he held, he was beat. He might have the best hand all the way to the river, be betting the heck out of it, then get rivered. Poor guy took bad beat after bad beat. One was simply pathetic, and I think drove him over the edge. He had already rebought three times, and this was too much. So before the first hour was even over, he just said, "Screw it," and went home. Sort of reminded me of Cartman, "Screw you guys, I'm going home!"

Larry has been on a horrible run the last couple of weeks. Of course, he was on a great run for a couple of weeks before that, so there ya go. That is tournament poker!

My table turned extremely tight. One person would typically raise or go all-in BTF, everyone would fold. Yipes. I stayed afloat using this technique, but really didn't go anywhere.

Since my table was so tight, we weren't losing anyone. Every fifteen minutes or so, April would come get one of us to supplement another table. Then a table was broken down, and we would fill up again. This happened until we were down to two tables. Luckily, Glenn and I were mostly at separate tables.

I have written about the dirty little angleshooters at the Belle before. Mr. and Mrs. Montana. I should learn to do a search on my archives, then link the story to the current one, like Linda G. does. But I am way too lazy to make it that easy on my readers. I write mostly for myself, so I guess I will stay that selfish. Go back and read the archives if you want to know who is in the main cast of characters! LOL /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Anyway, the angleshooters (AS) come and go. Sometimes they are there, then maybe they go back to Montana? Go travelling? Who knows. This time Mrs. AS was at my table, off and on, having been transferred there, not one of the original players. She is super tight, making Betty look like Gus Hansen, lol. She had a monster stack of chips. How??? I guess the flops were with her. She didn't build much on her stack with our uber tight table, but the April moved her to the "final" table to keep them balanced, and she kept building. Unfortunately, her husband, Mr. AS, was at the other table, so they were able to softplay to each other and both stay afloat.

Her husband is the one who likes to take chips from the pot and add them to his stack, or move the button so that he can miss blinds, etc. They are both scumbags, although, for some reason, James seems to like them. Go figure!

I have caught Mrs. AS working some of her husband's angleshooting techniques recently in tourneys. She tries to act all shy and sorry like an overaged schoolgirl when caught. Giggling and apologizing for making her little "mistakes." I'd say she's at least 65, so the act doesn't really cut it anymore, but for whatever reason, they are allowed to remain at the Belle. Someone said they used to own a small cardroom in Montana, so they definitely have the angles down pat, but they aren't very good at executing them, or either I'm simply the most observant player in the room. Everyone lets them get away with it! I constantly look like the "bad guy," busting them when they are cheating. Even the dealers don't catch it! Granted, some dealers are more aware than others, and there are at least half a dozen that the AS would never try to cheat with, but for the most part, the dealers at the Belle are just completely oblivious to their behavior.

Anyway, getting back to the story. Once we got down to ten players, we were in the money. I made it, along with Glenn, which is rare. Mr. and Mrs. AS made it, with the Mrs. having the chip lead of the whole tourney, maybe 6000+ in chips.

Glenn and I stayed alive for quite a while, although we both came to the final table shortstacked. Once he was in the BB, but I had the best hand I'd seen, by far. A24Js, or something. At first I wasn't going to make a move, but then I reminded myself that I am NOT a scummy little angleshooter. I asked myself what I would do if anyone else but Glenn was in the BB. I'd go all-in. So I went all-in. When it got back to Glenn, he asked himself what he would do if anyone else had raised his BB with the hand he had: A3xxs, or something, and he knew he would call, especially when it was only 6 chips to him, not much more, with the chance to knock me out. So he called. I doubled through and survived, but we did NOT cheat or softplay each other, like Mr. & Mrs. AS, who were never involved in a hand together.

One time Glenn went all-in with a good hand. Mrs. AS went over the top of Glenn for a stack of 20 chips (2000). The blinds folded. Mrs. AS took BACK her stack, not matching Glenn's all-in. I "reminded" her, for about the 20th time since they have been in Laughlin, that she was shorting the pots, AGAIN. She did the sweet, innocent, schoolgirl act, apologized, then put out the ten chips or whatever it was that Glenn went all-in with.

Not even GLENN noticed this! Where is everyone? On Mars??? The dealer didn't notice, not one of the ten players at the final table, even the all-in, my husband, noticed this cheat besides me. I'm NOT that intelligent, people! Jeez, louise.

Anyway, Glenn split the pot with her or something.

We got down to eight players. I was constantly having to make moves to survive, as I was the shortest stack for most of the final table play. I got AA25s. I shoved all-in. Mrs. AS, who now had about 8000 in chips, went over the top. I got some lovely protection from her. I turned up my hand, she had QQxx. Naturally, she caught her queen and no low developed. She was running amazingly lucky all night, except me constantly calling her on her cheating.

For whatever reason, if one is old and smiles sweetly and innocently at the Belle, pretending they just don't know any differently, people tend to look the other way. The staff, the floorman, the poker room manager, James, and even the other players. Even my own frigging husband, who should be more alert and aware, with all of his experience. Why must I constantly be Wyatt Earp in the poker room??? I end up looking like a creep, the dealers snip at me about being "Ms. Perfect, who can never, ever make a mistake," and the other players roll their eyes when I catch someone cheating or a dealer making a mistake.

Okay, who frigging cares? I have to stay ME, and I have to be true to myself and the integrity of poker. I don't f-ing care what anyone thinks. Screw you, I'm going home! LOL /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Getting back to my extremely long winded story...I was out at 8th, and picked up $90.

Glenn went out almost immediately after me.

Mr. AS went on to win the tourney, while softplaying her husband higher into the money.

As the World Turns in Laughlin....

[Zetack]

I hate cheaters...

[Greg (FossilMan)]

I would have a talk in the office with the manager of the room about them. Don't threaten to quit or anything, just calmly inform him/her of the cheating that these two engage in, and what a poor job the dealers do of policing it. Let him know that you think the proper action is to talk with these two players, inform them that their bad actions are being noticed and are unwelcome, and tell them to clean it up or they will be permanently barred. Inform the manager that you do intend to publish to the world (i.e., like here at 2+2) how well, or how poorly, this issue is handled, and that you know they will do the right thing.

If they fail to do anything useful after this, talk to them again. Tell them that you'll need to go over their head to higher casino management if nothing short of that remedies the situation. You can be sure that the poker room manager does not want you going to their boss about this, or about anything, unless it's praise. Now that I think about it, you should go over their head with praise if they do handle the situation properly. Just make sure you give them praise in a manner that actually benefits them. That is, don't talk about how they settled a long-standing problem, as the boss might put the emphasis on the "long-standing" part, rather than the "settled" part.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[FeliciaLee]

Thanks for the advice, Greg.

I wish I could aptly illustrate the difference between east and west poker. I have talked about this before, when you and I had the discussion about the Tropicana vs. poker rooms out here.

Out here, angleshooting is not only tolerated, but it is an accepted part of poker play. Checking with chips, putting a bet or raise in front of the cards, then taking it back when the action comes around, etc.

There is no rule against angleshooting. Granted, this couple goes beyond that, into the realm of pure cheating, but they are not only tolerated, they are FRIENDS with the poker room manager and several of the executives of the casino. They go out to dinner, etc.

Mostly, my post was just a rant. I grew not to tolerate angleshooting when I was playing in AC, and now here I am, back in the hotbed of "advantage" play poker, lol.

I am sincerely blessed that most of the players here are well below sub par, even with their cheating tactics. Another added blessing is that most of the regulars are senior citizens and the nicest people in the world (not rocks either!).

Every once in a while, I just feel the need to scream and pull my hair out!

Oh, I forgot, I don't have hair anymore, lol. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Anyway, thanks for the caring reply.

[zuluking]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. That $hit isn't tolarated here in Louisiana. I've seen angle shooters and cheaters get their ever lovin a$$ES kicked!

Change casino's darlin'!

Side note: LOVE YOUR WEBSITE!

[FeliciaLee]

Tyvm, Zulu /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I still say I've got a great deal here. The weather is perfect, the cost of living is like rural Louisiana (without the humidity, lol), the players are, for the most part, extremely sweet, loose and BAD.

I will say, however, that I love Louisiana! If you ever get out this way, drop me a PM. I will do the same, as we are considering a trip to Galveston, TX in May, and will try to swing by LA for some poker /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Big Al]

to be honest, you get what you deserve, playing in Omaha tournaments in Laughlin...

[limon]

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky

[chesspain]

Speaking of angleshooters, the following was from my recent trip report to Vegas:


"Another incident my final night at the Monte Carlo soured me on this place for good. One of the fairly new arrivals at my 4/8 table, who appeared to be a regular, was a weather-beaten blond man in his mid forties who looked liked a sundrenched, coked-out ski bum. His wife looked only slightly better. During a hand in which I was not involved, a young, drunk in seat one showed his cards, which caused ski bum to seemingly muck his cards. As his cards were in the air, his wife shouted “You had a straight!,” which caused ski bum to immediately shout “I had a straight!.” One card landed face down in the now accordian spread of the muck, whereas the other card was never even identified after it hit. Ski bum then claimed “I meant to toss them down and they flipped over.” The dealer then calls over the Asian brush, “T.V.”, who after hearing the story, turns to the drunk kid and says “Is it O.K. for you to only get half of the pot, since he had the straight?” Mind you, not only were both cards in the muck, but no one actually even saw his hand! The kid seemed bewildered and agreed, muttering “I don’t want to a jerk about it; if he had the straight he had the straight.” I was in shock, but since I was neither involved in the hand nor asked for my opinion, I did not say anything. I left soon afterwards, disgusted with the obvious “home court advantage.”

[FeliciaLee]

I read that post, Chess /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I didn't want to respond to your thread because my Mom dealt at the MC for 7 years (until her elbow got broken in an auto accident), and I figured I might be a little too close to the situation to comment.

I will say, however, that once T.V. made my Mom pee in her pants because he would not relieve her and forced her to keep dealing. So you probably know what I think of that...

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Felicia:

Angle shooting is certainly a problem. The most common angle I see today is the player who stacks his chips perpendicular to his seat and then keeps his cards to the right of his chips so that the players acting after him cannot see them. He'll then act very slowly when the action gets to him in the hopes of getting the players after him to commit one way or the other. My opinion is that players who routinely do this sort of thing shouldn't be allowed in the poker rooms.

The only way to combat this is to speak up. But when I say speak up, an outburst at the poker table usually does little good because the offending person will just deny it, or even worse claim that you are guilty of something just as bad.

The best thing to do is to quietly but firmly talk to the cardroom personel. They are the ones that need to enforce the rules fairly and uniformly. You need to explain to them exactly what the offending person is doing, and why it is long term bad for their poker games. You also need to be firm on the idea that you expect them to do something, and this includes to train their dealers to watch and stop the offending actions. I also wouldn't be embarrassed about making the exact same complaint to them more than once concerning the exact same person.

If they won't do anything about it, my advice is to take your business elsewhere. Unfortunately, with today's poker boom many floor people have little incentive to do their jobs well since the room will be filled anyway.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Phat Mack]

The most common angle I see today is the player who stacks his chips perpendicular to his seat and then keeps his cards to the right of his chips so that the players acting after him cannot see them.

I've seen the same thing. I'd like to see a rule preventing the cards from being brought closer to the rail than the furthest chips. Currently, dealers can correct a player who places his cards behind a row of chips running parallel to the rail; dealers should be authorized to prevent the same thing with chip stacked perpendicular to the rail.


---------------------
The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.

[J_V]

I want to know what limon said.

[Phat Mack]

From what I remember of limon's post:

Poker is a rough and tumble game with many tactical and stategic nuances. It's the player's individual responsibilty to protect himself. Attempts to sanitize the game by eliminating legal angling woud only ruin poker. Advocates of sanitization are worthy of ridicule.

[limon]

that's about right and mike sexton is an idiot for saying paul philips was unethical in his table chatter and some of the best games i've ever played in were filled with amatuerish "angle shooters". if your not playing at a level to counter an angle shooter you're not playing at a level to consistently win at poker.

[J_V]

why did you get deleted for saying that? Language I assume. I am always shocked at how much time Mason spends on talking about angle shooting. It's never been a problem in any game I've played at, especially the minor stuff he talks about. What do I care, if I guy goes through all that work and gets to see if the guy behind him is gonna raise, so he can limp w/ j-10s.

[limon]

mason is a classic poker nit. perfectly suited for limit poker. he fears all of the psychological aspects of a real poker game and would love to play in a game devoid of people and personalities where only math ruled. i cant imagine why my post was deleted. probably because i speak in the style of a real person and not a computer.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

well limon, I replied to your first rather offensive post that got deleted, but apparently mine got deleted too. Shouldn't I go from "zero to hero" too?

Anyway, you just showed the true colors again that you showed in your post that got deleted. let me quote:

[ QUOTE ]
if your not playing at a level to counter an angle shooter you're not playing at a level to consistently win at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

So am I right in gathering that you propose that it's up to the player to just play good enough to allow the angle shooting cheaters to continue their normal procedures with total impunity, with complete disregard for the official rules or otherwise normally ethical behavior??

Just checking cuz I need to get my notebook ready hoss to fully absorb the immensity of your vast wiz-dum.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
mason is a classic poker nit. perfectly suited for limit poker. he fears all of the psychological aspects of a real poker game and would love to play in a game devoid of people and personalities where only math ruled

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously you have met mason. and spent a lot of time with him. thus you have him pegged perfectly. and your comments are made solely and completely knowing everything there ever was to know about the man. from your vast, vast, VAST personal first hand experience.

Damn limon-boy, my pencil is in need of sharpening from taking notes due to your vast wiz-dum.

al

[CrackerZack]

My reply was deleted also. I felt like I had finally made it now that I had a post deleted.

[FeliciaLee]

[ QUOTE ]
My reply was deleted also. I felt like I had finally made it now that I had a post deleted.

[/ QUOTE ]
Jeez, and I was feeling good because all of my posts turn into flame wars. I thought "I'd" finally made it! LOL /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Al_Capone_Junior]

lol

Yea, you gotta get a post deleted to be in "the club." Club members also gotta have their flame wars now and then too though!

al

[J_V]

[ QUOTE ]
obviously you have met mason. and spent a lot of time with him. thus you have him pegged perfectly. and your comments are made solely and completely knowing everything there ever was to know about the man

[/ QUOTE ]

Based solely on the time you spend polishing his nob, I take it you do know more than most other men.

Limon's the man, you come messin w/ limon, you got yourself a rumble Capone.

[J_V]

Your movie Master and Commander is up for picture of the year. The critics may approve, but I still fault you for bad taste. I still have a filthy residue in my mouth from that crup.

[Phat Mack]

The critics may approve, but I still fault you for bad taste.

Not all the critics liked it, and the response to it in the threads here was overwhelmingly negative--I thought it would be gone in a week or two. I've noticed that it's still playing at the local Mega-plex, so there must be a group of weirdos who are keeping it going. Maybe I read too many Hornblower books as a kid.

I saw a couple of movies in the last couple of weeks where I was the only person in the theater: The Cooler and The Company. Cooler has been discussed elsewhere. I loved the The Company, but I'm a big dance fan and a big Altman fan. Movie fans should probably avoid it.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

you know what JV you stupid FK, i hope this one meets your eyes before it gets deleted. obviously your butt buddy limon knows absolutely nothing about mason except to criticize his play in a vain effort for ol limon the schmuck to boost his own ego. you do the same by insulting me. i'm sure your ego is a lot bigger now. you and limon have fun in your little bungalo while you polish HIS nob.

al

[J_V]

someone flew the coup.

[limon]

four factors go into my assertion that mm is a nit...

the time i've spent in the same game as MM
his essays
his posts
the fact that my posts get deleted on a regular basis for being honest.

[limon]

if you cant play well enough to beat an angle shooter you are not a winning player PERIOD. You are definitely not observant or quick witted enough to consistently win...even at limit poker...the golf cart of poker games. And stop clumping angles with cheating THEY ARE 2 DIFFERENT THINGS. Putting on an act or play before your chips leave your hand is not cheating. grabbing for a stack while your opponent is betting is not cheating. announcing or tabling your cards is not cheating. if your cards are on the table you are not hiding them. if your chips are on the table you are not obscuring your depth. if people who are using these ploys routinely beat or trick you...you suck! quit poker. or for $1000, probably less than you lose in a week, i will give you a 15 minute lesson on how to counter each of these angles to HUGE advantage.

[Vehn]

Your posts are insulting and derogatory. So are mine, but I don't direct them at the authors and hosts of this free forum. It should be obvious to anyone that this place would be "better" if it was not affiliated with 2+2, but its not, so you need to abide by their direct and implicit rules, one which is "don't be a prick to the people that host it". I enjoy your posts and your point of view but you need to tone down your attacks on 2+2 people if you expect to continue to post here. Anyone with half a brain should know this.

p.s. the fact that it appears that I agree with Al Capone Jr should be dismissed as coincidence.

[FeliciaLee]

We have strayed so far from the original subject that this post makes no sense anymore.

Limon, I don't believe that I ever said that I had "trouble" outplaying angleshooters.

I believe that I said that this particular couple has crossed the line from being pathetic little angleshooters and are now firmly in the category of poker cheats, since management, dealers and other players have decided to let this behavior continue and look the other way.

I also expressed shock that players who are getting cheated don't notice the cheating, when to me, an obvious poker amateur, it is clearly apparent.

I believe I also said that it gets old and tiring to constantly be pointing out that the pot is short, and that they are once again cheating the game. It keeps me from playing the very best that I can play at this time, to be constantly monitoring people who are cheating the table, and reminding the dealers who look the other way, or simply don't notice.

You have turned this thread into something not even vaguely resembling the original subject.

You somehow feel that it is your right on this forum to simply name call and put down others when you feel they are not as clever as you, or perhaps if you feel you are "losing" the battle. This is not a sign of maturity, it is a sign of immaturity (he who yells loudest wins).

I don't remember either Mason or Mike Sexton putting you down during this thread, but you feel that by going out of your way and name calling, you have somehow made a point. I do not believe you have made any point whatsover, unless it is showing us that you cannot logically debate a subject, nor can you accept that sometimes your posts go over the line from appropriate to inappropriate.

Please refrain from further comment on this subject, unless your contributions are of the original subject matter, or they are constructive to this group.

I hesistated even replying to this completely off-topic flame war, but the fact is, you are making several of us uncomfortable with your continued diatribe of something that is not even remotely related to the original subject matter.

Thank you,

Felicia

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
p.s. the fact that it appears that I agree with Al Capone Jr should be dismissed as coincidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFLMFAO!

It's kinda scary because it appears that I agree with you too!

Maybe we should insult each other's mommas just to get things back to normal! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

al

[limon]

if they're cheats CALL THEM CHEATS not anglers, anglers are not cheating, they're attempting to be tricky and its good for the game.

Sanitizing poker won't work and it will kill the surge we're experiencing now. There is precedent. In the early 90's vegas tried to go kid friendly, fully sanitized...IT DIDNT WORK. no one is gravitating towards poker for a button down made for TV game. they want the gambling, the excitement, the characters. People love it when paul philips chats it up at the final table. When deeb has a tantrum, farha's cigarette, you think anyone would tune in to see 9 mason's or sextons sleep it out at the final table? the farther the game gets from it's wild west roots the closer it is to becoming the roller coaster at NYNY.

Your post was responded to by several nits who wanted to give examples of angles and lump it in with cheating. i needed to set the record straight.

[Phat Mack]

Just some thoughts....

So am I right in gathering that you propose that it's up to the player to just play good enough to allow the angle shooting cheaters to continue their normal procedures with total impunity,

Angle shooters give up too much information. By shooting an angle:

They tell you what it is they fear (and once they tell you this, you own them);

By what they consider "smart", they tell you at what level they play; and,

Quite often, they tell you what their hand is.

Playing with angle shooters is fun. Whenever you come across a new angle, think about what it tells you and how to counter it. Once you have some success, you'll find yourself looking for angle shooters to play with.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

you know limey boy, you had a great start with your essays, but you really have gone downhill since.

Yea, I'll take you up on your $1000 anti-anglers lesson right away! Do you take third party checks? But unfortunately for you, these angling schmucks don't get past my eagle eye. So what was it you were going to teach me now? I already have a large ego, but yours is SO big I might learn from you there!

al

[J_V]

You know if Capone and Vehn are weighing in there must be blood in the water.

I never saw the original post but from what I've seen Limon hasn't ever gotten too far out of line. He's very honest and one of the leading big bet experts on 2+2.

I believe both Mason and Limon have made self-serving arguments as to why their game requires more skill. I certainly believe that the fact that Mason has spent a good deal of his adult life mastering limit poker influenced his thoughts on limit vs. no-limit as is probably true w/ Limon.

As for this issue, Mason spends a lot of time discussing dealer ineptitude and angleshooting as major concerns of poker right now. I happen to think these issues are very minor.

What I find especially strange is that Mason seems to think petty angleshooting is a major problem, i.e. hiding your cards. I happen to think it's a non-issue as does Limon I think. Guys hiding there cards will never ruffle my feathers or affect my EV to any tangible degree.

[limon]

...to call mason a nit but i just get tired of this rigid poker philosophy. It's because i only play big bet and it is just a much more dynamic game. i see things in a much different way. my customers are, tow truck operators, cabbies, pawn shop owners, drug dealers...ANGLE SHOOTERS! if you eliminated these people from poker you would eliminate my game. when mason and his minions rail against my customers i take it personal. you see these mason wannabes come to my game and kill it! they start telling the drug dealer hes hiding his cards. they start telling the pawn shop owner he cant check with chips. they start calling the floor when deal making "takes too long". I DONT NEED THIS SHIAT IN MY GAME! heres the difference between me and you...i routinely order a round of drinks for my "friends" at the table, please dont steal dynamic thought from poker.

[J_V]

You should consider the lessons, those angle shooters can really eat into your earn in those tough, tight 3-6 games.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
You know if Capone and Vehn are weighing in there must be blood in the water

[/ QUOTE ]

BLOOD! SLURP!

A tiny fraction of a % of my posts are of this nature. Normally I am quite polite and stick to the subject. A search of my posts will reveal this to be true. But a good flame war can be fun now and then.

I doubt limey boy is "one of the leading big bet experts on 2+2" very much. If he were, more of his posts would stand out in the no limit forum. Still, I don't doubt that he is in fact a card player of some degree of skill. He just needs to be a little more polite and he'll get better responses and less flame war-age.

But hey, if he got the matches, I brought the gasoline.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I see the point you are making too limon. It's silly to be excessively picky at the table and drive everyone off. I personally feel that much or most of angle shooting (not the same as blatant cheating) is ungentlemanly, and I believe in being very gentlemanly at a live cardroom table. Thus my strong feelings on the matter.

I don't want to turn Felicialee's post into another SS forum monstrocity tho.

al

[limon]

why doubt...either i know of what i speak or i dont. i've only posted 180 times on these boards, ive went head to head with the big boys on PL/NL issues and won. all of my posts are filled with "white meat". I have offered big bet insight that has never before been in print. i dont write it in an easy to digest style and i state things as fact. if you think any of my pl/nl advice is wrong...bring it. my goal is to promote big bet poker and prepare people for what to expect. they need to realize it is a mans game and to leave their snively whining at the 15-30 table.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Your giant ego is not in doubt.

But as you yourself said, you only have 180 posts.

Thus you cannot possibly be considered one of the leading players on these forums.

You have simply not given ENOUGH pot/no limit advice for me to have a solid opinion on it, except that I shant concede that you're "one of the top posters" until you make more posts and PROVE IT. When I think of "who to go to for no limit questions," your name doesn't come up first, nor even third. It doesn't come up at all. So your gigantic ego serves only yourself in this matter, it does not serve as proof of anything except your own preoccupation with your own perceived greatness and/or magnanimousness.

Unlike yourself, I don't claim to be the all-time best player of all times. I admit my shortcomings, and most importantly, I am willing to learn from others here instead of always pretending to know it all.

al

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I doubt limey boy is "one of the leading big bet experts on 2+2" very much. If he were, more of his posts would stand out in the no limit forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

He is and they do.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
When I think of "who to go to for no limit questions," your name doesn't come up first, nor even third.

[/ QUOTE ]

It shouldn't come up first, because you should want to hear from Zee more. But second could be limon, Fossilman, maybe Zeno and a couple of others. The rest of us are all way behind.

[J.A.Sucker]

You are wrong about limon's posts. They are among the best in the big bet forum (among about 3 or 4 people's advice that i even bother to listen to). The fact that he has seldom replied is probably because there is little point to writing about what to do with QQ in a 25 NL game preflop.

Not only does his stuff make sense, it's correct. While I don't share his hatred for limit poker (at higher limits, it can be quite tricky), there is some merit to what he says. There is more "play" (and surely more ways to skin a cat) in big bet, while limit usually has one play that is correct (though many people don't know what that play is).

As for his ego, I don't really care. I want poker advice, not a nice boy to cuddle with.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[Al_Capone_Junior]

what is this the friggin limey boy fan club? gimme a friggin break! Fossilman isn't too full of himself to answer posts about $25 games, neither is Zee. And neither Zee nor Greg has a goddamn friggin ego the size of manhattan that they spend all day publicly stroking. Instead, Greg and Zee POST ON TOPICS DISCUSSED ON THE FORUMS. Why limey boy has such a fan club is beyond me. Perhaps one day his posts will stand out enough to catch my eye. I have liked SOME of his posts. But since he rarely stoops so low as to ACTUALLY POST ABOUT TOPICS OF INTEREST TO THE FORUMS, it's doubtful that he'll EVER be one of the top posters here! just because ol' ego-boy has a small following does not give him some special credit that can elevate him above the rest without his having to post and prove his expertise.

So he can either put his money where his mouth is or shut the hell up and quit bitching about people not respecting him as THE leading no limit expert on 2+2!

al

[MRBAA]

Is it true that Limon is mixed heritage Greek/Armenian?

[limon]

yes i live in glendale,ca. w/ chris karagululiluliilliulian.

[limon]

i dont reply to on line poker posts or posts where the limits are so small that the posters are making aweful decisions because it was only $3 to call pre flop. I ask a simple question: What if it was $300 to call would you make the same decision?

I'm not the best player in the world by a long shot but I have been a winning player for 15 years big bet poker exclusively. I currently play in three games a .50/$1 blinds mixed pl home game. A $2/5 blinds NL mixed home game. And the $5/5 PL holdem game at HP every tuesday sometimes sat. as well. I have seen hundreds come and go in my time and i stand by my advice. (Proof I'm a winning player, Happily married for 11 years and im "allowed" to host 2 games in my house)

I believe zee's advice is better than mine but he posts much as i do and he woud be more harsh if he didnt need to sell books. fossil man seems to be a "poker guy", i definitely am not, but i know several player have made there way to HP due to my posts and that is my goal.

[Ulysses]

Does limon have a big ego? Yes.

Can limon be a dick? Yes.

Does limon provide some of the best big-bet advice on this forum? Yes.

The third point is all that I really care about. For people playing small online NL games, there's plenty of good advice. For those of us trying to learn how to play bigger live NL games, there are very few experienced posters providing good advice on this forum. limon is one of them. Simple as that.

[Clarkmeister]

Al,

I don't read the NL forum since I don't play the game. But if JV, Ulysses and JASucker say he's a top 3 NL poster, I believe them. All 3 of them have my respect and wouldn't step into this mess just for kicks.

[Vehn]

[ QUOTE ]
fossil man seems to be a "poker guy", i definitely am not, but i know several player have made there way to HP due to my posts and that is my goal.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean by this anyways?

[Al_Capone_Junior]

maybe one day limon will stand out very clearly as one of the best posters on the forum. right now he's just an ego-boy who rarely feels the need to answer questions, tho often points out his own unwillingness to comment on topics because they are too far "beneath him." if you're going to post your own refusal to comment because it's just too far beneath you, you might as well just post the friggin answer. This is a discussion forum, not a "non-discussion because these pitiful topics are too far beneath my great skillfulness" forum. So either discuss, or shut the hell up! I for one could not care less how much ego-boy thinks of himself, he's already discussed THAT enough.

al

[limon]

well i could be way offbase but he seems like the type of guy who people at the casino know. people know him by name, players, floormen, etc. people know he's "fossilman" he's approachable. I wrote once about how i'm more like a ghost at the casino. I ONLY play in ONE game and even there everyone knows me but i doubt if half the regulars could tell you my name. I smile, I chop, I make deals, and if people are drinking I say, "oh thats my favorite let me buy a round". And if people are acting like nits i tell them to get on the 15-30 board and if people say these deals take forever I tell them there is a ladies only tournament every Mothers day. And then they want to kick my ass and my friends who dont even know me want to kick their ass and it makes the PL game a comraderie where people are HAPPY to lose. And i suppose some of you wont take this as advice because it isnt in essay form...but it is.

interesting side note YEARS ago someone said i was russian and i never corrected them so people still refer to me as the "russian guy".

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont reply to on line poker posts or posts where the limits are so small that the posters are making aweful decisions because it was only $3 to call pre flop. I ask a simple question: What if it was $300 to call would you make the same decision?

I'm not the best player in the world by a long shot but I have been a winning player for 15 years big bet poker exclusively. I currently play in three games a .50/$1 blinds mixed pl home game. A $2/5 blinds NL mixed home game. And the $5/5 PL holdem game at HP every tuesday sometimes sat. as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK limey, you play 1-2 blinds, 2-5 blinds, and 5-5 blinds. But these measly online players are FAR beneath your superior skills.

OK limey boy, I'm writing it all down now.

You know sometimes even us measly online peons have to face $300 calls playing 2-4 blinds. And we almost all play tourneys, where at least as much money, and often far more chips, ride on individual decisions. But still, we're beneath your bother cuz you're a "high limit player."

My advice to you is that if you want respect, try being less of a schmuck and put your mouth where your money (supposedly) is..

Oh, and I think Zee comes off as being a nice guy... because he's a nice guy.

al

[Vehn]

Hmm I kinda get it but if you play a lot people will just know your name regardless. Ironically just this weekend someone who I've played probably 100-150 hours with (at mid limit LHE) finally asked me my name even though I've known his since day 1.

[limon]

hahaha my little friend, online poker isn't poker, there are no people, i dont care what the limits are. "big" bet poker on-line is a joke. its as much poker as on-line porno is sex, not even close. but there are few who play live poker at a consistently winning level noticing things like whether amir bought in with 20's or hundreds. I suppose to that 95% it's all the same.

btw, the purpose of the rundown wasn't ot prove i play big it was just to be honest. many play much bigger than me. but the entire town of las vegas cant support a single $5-5 pl game.

[limon]

yes some do, there is at least 10 who know me well but there are people who started coming to the casino 6 months ago who are known by everybody im just not THAT guy. Im not "norm" by any stretch but many people are. im cool with that. The HP game turns over ALOT i dont bother to introduce myself to everybody i'm just nice and helpful to those who lose. I've found that being too friendly gets you alot of unwanted requests and denying those requests causes people to dislike you more than never getting to know them in the first place...this is also good advice.

[glen]

dude,

One is not obligated to do anything on this forum. You don't have to put time in giving back to poker community of someone helps you. When Limon used to post back before they even had nl on the internet, they were among the best on the site, especially the anecdotes and advice about tells. Once the internet forum started, you would have to search 8 pages just to find a live nl post. He used to discuss ALL nl hands, regardless of stakes, but you have to admit, if you give advice and discuss hands based on reads of actual people, there is no sense in giving an online player advice. In any case, he is one of the most valuable. And, I like his ego, but I like people with egos in general. They are confident people. . .

[limon]

i've been posting here since the late 90's, not originally as limon, always about big bet, and back then there were VERY few of us. if i would have started on rgp maybe thats where i'd be but i started here and ill continue to give good advice and be a pain in the ass till they ban me from the site.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

ok hoss you have some points. Admittedly I prefer live over online anyday, and you touched on some of the reasons why. also, I agree that online poker has made the forums expand greatly. But I have been on this forum for eight years. I respect people based on their history of posts. Limon simply hasn't posted here enough to be one of the top posters. He is not obligated to do so either. however, respect IS earned. A massive ego does not command respect in and of itself.

nuff said. I think this thread should die now before it gets out of hand.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

well guess what! we actually (sort of) agree on one thing -online poker sucks!

As someone who's entire life experience, more than 26 years, was live, but who was then forced (due to a terrible error in choice to move far from any live poker) to play online, I AGREE that online poker is NOT poker.

But online poker can still generate some discussion worthy of posts, just not all the aspects that exist live are going to be considerations.

Since you play in vegas (obviously) you'll undoubtedly get the chance to see me there soon, since I am soon to be moving there. Touche!

I don't want to keep flame war-ing, BTW. Twas fun while it lasted tho. I know you are a good player with stuff to say, just please DO say it.

al

[ChipWrecked]

I won't give any opinion here 'cuz I haven't earned one.

But when I'm making an iffy call in my puny online limit games, I sometimes whisper to myself: "I am more Greek!"

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi JV:

There are a couple of players in particular who I have in mind who slow down the gane three to four hands an hour. That alone is a significant effect on your EV.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Limon:

You have a lot to learn about the differences between limit and no limit. First in no limit it is accepted to take much more time on your decisions than in limit. And second, in no limit your are looking to win all of your opponents chips at one time. Consequently, again the time decisions are totally different.

By the way, the main reason I specialize in limit play is because for many years at the games that I could afford that's all that was offered at the locations that I played at. By the way, it's still that way and I now play in limits up to and including $80-$160.

But I do see your point. If players do come into your regular no limit game and they do have a limit mentality, they should have trouble with the slowness of play.

Best wishes,
Mason

[JohnG]

Anyone that thinks Limon is not amongst the top bigbet posters hasn't a clue about the game. Easily top 5 over the past few years.

[scalf]

/images/graemlins/blush.gif fel: all i gotta say is you're the belle at the belle...as in southern belle; but sob; you're taken, and i waste my life in a career with a regular paycheck..oh, well.....dreaming on..

gl..gr8 articles..keep em coming..

gl /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[AJo Go All In]

limon's the man and you're an annoying little turd.

while you post 10 times as often as he does, his advice is 10 times more valuable in my opinion.

but don't get jealous. you can make up for it by posting 8000 more dissertations about the merits of playing small pairs in Party 25 NL.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Think what you want AJo cuz I do believe you would go all-in with that, even if you knew your two opponents held AA and JJ. That's about what I think of your posts, so I guess the respect between you and I is mutual.

And since you're about a week late, I have shown limon respect, but I also like a good flame war now and then. You cannot possibly have read the whole thread, nor some of the recent discussions on the NL forum between him, me and others.

So flame me some more if you want. Try insulting my momma, I love those types of flame wars. Try these for starters...

Your momma's so fat...

Your momma's so bald...

Your momma's combat boots are so stank...

etc

al

[RydenStoompala]

I experienced exactly this scenario at the Mirage, of all places. I went for a washroom break, spoke to the floor manager and came back to find the player's chips moved into a "normal" pile. Only one other player had noticed and he assumed, correctly, that I had raised a stink. What a stupid, cheap angle to play. I'm still naive enough to believe everyone wants a fair game, but you always have to be aware, regardless of the casino's reputation.