Big pairs at low limits

[aces_full]

I am starting to realize that big pocket pairs are a big leak in my low limit game. I seem to stay out of trouble with low and middle pairs because I play them this way-If I don't flop a set, I won't call a bet. I figure with an average of six opponents seeing a flop I'm probably beat since an overcard is likely to fall and pair someone up. The lower my pocket pair, the more likely it is that I'm beat on the flop, and my odds of making a set have just gotten worse, so folding is a pretty easy decision if there is a bet on the flop.

With big pairs (mostly AA or KK) it's much trickier. Most often I will put in the last raise with these hands pre-flop. In most cases the flop will come something like 2-6-9 rainbow. Unlike with the low pair, I probably still have the best hand despite the flop, so I am very reluctant to fold, but it seems like every way I play from here on out, I get burned, usually on the river.

Here are three different scenarios from 2/4 :

I'm on BB with pocket aces. Player in MP with 66 raises to $4, I re-raise, and he caps it. The board comes all low rags but MP catches a 6 to make his set. I check the flop, he bets, I check-raise. He calls, along with two others. The turn is a blank, I check, MP bets, I call. The river is also a blank, I check, MP bets, I call to see his flopped set beat my pair of aces. The other guy called along with nothing.

Scenario #2
I get AA on the SB. I raise to $4 pre-flop and get called by BB and 5 others. The flop comes all rags. Since I'm first to act I just bet it out and get four callers. The turn is a blank, I bet and end up heads up against the BB with 99 and a straight draw. The river is 9c-the third club on the board. I screwed it up here. Fearing that my AA was second best (which it was)after the third club fell, I checked. BB checked because he feared the flush too. Lost that hand to a set of 9's made on the river. He told me that if I bet he would have folded because he put me on the flush draw and thought I made it on the river.

Scenario #3
Same session as #2 a few hands later. I'm in MP and look down to see KK. A couple of limpers in front of me and I make it $4 to go. Once again the flop is all garbage, but the BB who had J5o caught a 5 for middle pair. It's checked to me and I bet it out. That bet put me heads up against the BB and his small pair. Jd falls on the river,and just like scenario #2, that was the third diamond on the board. The BB checks to me and I bet. The guy on the BB fired off a check-raise as soon as I bet. With 3 diamonds on the board, I knew I was screwed. I looked at my kings long and hard before finally mucking them. I thought for sure he had made the flush on the river. He turned over his cards and showed me his J5 for 2 pair. Prior to these two hands, I was up about $60 for this session, and now lost $24 of that with two big hands in a few minutes. After that, I just got up from the table and left.

Looking at all three scenarios, I beleive my opponents made some mistakes-for instance capping pre-flop with 66, and chasing middle pair with a jack kicker. But my problem is, when to know when I'm beat. It seems like every time I get a big pocket pair I end up losing-mostly to a chaser who gets lucky and picks up two pair on the river, no matter how I play the hand.

[RickA]

Aces

I think you played these hands fine. You seemed to me to know when you were beat by ch calling the turn in hand #1. Personally I would call down rather than fold becasue in LL alot of people would play top pair the same way. In the long run you will win with these hands.

RIckA

[Rico Suave]

Hey aces full:

Scenario #1:
When an opponent flops a set vs. your wired AA, you are going to lose--it happens. I would have lost more than you in this hand. You check raise the flop, he just flat calls, and then you just check call the turn? Simply b/c he called your raise you thought you were behind? I would have led out on the turn, 3-bet if raised, and slowed down if capped.

Scenario #2:
The BB hits is 2 outer to win--sucks, but again, it happens. I would probably bet this river, especially heads up, and call a raise. Since you checked, I hope you were going to call if bb bet.

Scenario #3:
You played it fine, except I would really have to know my opponent to be completely straight forward to fold to his raise. Yeah, he hit his 5 outer and won, sucks--but, again, it happens.

I know how you feel, especially when your big pairs get cracked over and over (My QQ have gone 3 for 12 recently /images/graemlins/frown.gif ). But in the long run, they will be your biggest money makers.

--Rico

[harboral]

There is not much you can do about taking a beating with each of your listed hands, however, i disagree with the other posters and find errors on all three hands.

Hand 1 - If you cap the flop, what are you doing checking the turn? If you decide you are behind - don't cap the flop.

Hand 2 - You need to bet the turn and the river -(even though I do NOT believe he would have folded his set) I am in favor of betting a flop and turn even when there is a 3-straight or 3-flush. If you don't you are giving up a lot of bets over the course of an evening - and risking somebody improving to a better hand than yours FOR FREE!

Hand 3- You have to wonder what this guy is calling the flop and turn with and because on the end there is now a 3-flush, this is where you go ahead and show your hand without a bet because you are most likely to only be called (or raised) when you are beat thus you have a -EV on this bet.

Forget the fact that you got drawn-out on on these 3 hands because Hold'em is a 7-card game and these things will happen. Start thinking about the way you played these and you may find that many of the other times you held a big pair you also played weakly if these are a good indication of your general play.

[aces_full]

[ QUOTE ]
There is not much you can do about taking a beating with each of your listed hands, however, i disagree with the other posters and find errors on all three hands.

Hand 1 - If you cap the flop, what are you doing checking the turn? If you decide you are behind - don't cap the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

In the first hand I capped pre-flop when I had the best possible hand. I check-raised the flop, and called the last two bets because I had a feeling I might be behind when the original pre-flop raiser bet out on the flop and then called when I check-raised.

On the third hand, you are absolutely correct. If he called me down this far, he would only have called my bet on the end if he had me beat. Since he checked to me I probably should have checked since my pair never improved. I still would have lost, but saved one bet.

I guess what I am really looking for is not so much comments on my individual hands, but general guidelines for playing big pairs when the board misses my hand completely. I usually feel compelled to play these hands to the end, and most times the board seems to be so ragged that I have a hard time putting my opponents on a hand.

[ScottTheFish]

Hand 2: One BIG mistake I think a lot of people make is getting scared off a big pair or TPTK when that 3rd flush card or straight card hits, and not betting out. Don't forget, that board looks as scary to him as it does to you (if he doesn't have it).

So bet out. If he raises, then you start thinking he may have hit something. If you check and call, you don't learn anything.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]

I guess what I am really looking for is not so much comments on my individual hands, but general guidelines for playing big pairs when the board misses my hand completely. I usually feel compelled to play these hands to the end, and most times the board seems to be so ragged that I have a hard time putting my opponents on a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

General guidelines? When you flop an overpair you ram it down your opponent's throat. Keep betting and raising until you get *solid* evidence there is a problem. Every bet they call is one you are a favorite to win. If they fold, that's good too because you don't want them drawing when you have only one pair. But often they'll play with you because you raised preflop and they suspect that you are semi-bluffing with two big overcards and they can beat that. Often they'll raise back in an attempt to get you to "admit" you haven't made your hand yet. That's hardly proof you're beat and you should hit them back at least once to see if they are serious.

This general strategy will win a pile of money in the long run but it will also lose some hands. When you lose, chalk it up to the price of doing business, take a deep breath, and play the next hand. Then play it the same way next time.

Oh, don't ever forget that general guidelines never replace careful evaluation of all of the details of the hand. That's what the other posters are trying to tell you about your three examples.

[HajiShirazu]

I don't like going for a checkraise after capping the flop. You capped before the flop-you're not fooling anyone. They know what you have. I have tried this in the past and it usually gets checked through unless somebody flops a monster. Just bet and go for 3 bets, since he obviously liked his hand preflop as well.
Always bet the turn/river when the 3-flush/straight card hits unless the action dictates that your opponent could only possibly have a flush draw, which almost never happens. That guy with the set of nines is full of s*&#. He would have called.
On hand 3 you must bet the river. You probably lose when you are checkraised, but you need to call it down as it is a fairly large pot, and if you fold for one bet in large pots, your opponents will start taking shots at you. On a side note, I have seen some incredible bluffs on the river in LL online games over the past few days...people making huge river moves when it is totally obvious they are beaten and will be called.

[JPNet]

I can remember sessions where, for example, I had poket KK 6 times, poket AA twice and poket QQ twice and lost every one. It seems to me that I lose most of them not to a 66 or 99, but to an 83o, or J2o, or maybe a big hand like a 27s.

So, I forget about the times I lost 6bb, and think about the times when my third card came up, the board paired and 4 or 5 fish raised and re-raised for me and I won a 30bb pot.

I go ahead and play them the same way every time, jam them till it looks like there a good reason to back off and save a few bets.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Here are three different scenarios from 2/4 :

I'm on BB with pocket aces. Player in MP with 66 raises to $4, I re-raise, and he caps it. The board comes all low rags but MP catches a 6 to make his set. I check the flop, he bets, I check-raise. He calls, along with two others. The turn is a blank, I check, MP bets, I call. The river is also a blank, I check, MP bets, I call to see his flopped set beat my pair of aces. The other guy called along with nothing.


[/ QUOTE ]

You should have bet the turn, but there nothing you could do about him spiking a set.

[ QUOTE ]
Scenario #2
I get AA on the SB. I raise to $4 pre-flop and get called by BB and 5 others. The flop comes all rags. Since I'm first to act I just bet it out and get four callers. The turn is a blank, I bet and end up heads up against the BB with 99 and a straight draw. The river is 9c-the third club on the board. I screwed it up here. Fearing that my AA was second best (which it was)after the third club fell, I checked. BB checked because he feared the flush too. Lost that hand to a set of 9's made on the river. He told me that if I bet he would have folded because he put me on the flush draw and thought I made it on the river.


[/ QUOTE ]
He's lieing.

[ QUOTE ]
Scenario #3
Same session as #2 a few hands later. I'm in MP and look down to see KK. A couple of limpers in front of me and I make it $4 to go. Once again the flop is all garbage, but the BB who had J5o caught a 5 for middle pair. It's checked to me and I bet it out. That bet put me heads up against the BB and his small pair. Jd falls on the river,and just like scenario #2, that was the third diamond on the board. The BB checks to me and I bet. The guy on the BB fired off a check-raise as soon as I bet. With 3 diamonds on the board, I knew I was screwed. I looked at my kings long and hard before finally mucking them. I thought for sure he had made the flush on the river. He turned over his cards and showed me his J5 for 2 pair. Prior to these two hands, I was up about $60 for this session, and now lost $24 of that with two big hands in a few minutes. After that, I just got up from the table and left.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you know he wouldn't raise without something that beats top pair, this is a good laydown, but I will usually make a player show me a winner heads up with an overpair.

[Zetack]

I don't have any general guidelines for you but I do have this thought: your problem with big pairs may be selective memory. Because you expect them to win it's more memorable to you when they lose than when they win.

Here's a thought--track your aces and kings. I started doing this with Aces just out of curiosity when I went on a bad run of having them cracked. I do it as a running tally so there's a line in my journal that would have, for example: 19/25. Meaning I've won with my aces 19/25 times. If I win the next time I have em, the next line will be 20/26. (I started over with the new year).

I've lost with aces as many as five times in a row (and 7 out of nine in that streak) and won with them as many as 14 times in a row. Since I started tracking (just under a hundred pairs of Aces so far) my win rate with the aces is 73 percent--and I am playing exclusively micro-levels. (I don't track AA from my tourneys, only my ring games.)

You could get fancier and put the amount of your win or loss too, to get a better picture of whether its a leak in your game.

I suspect you'll find, as I do, that you win with aces about 3/4 of the time. Now how the KK comes out, I don't know.

--Zetack

[Ed Miller]

I check-raised the flop, and called the last two bets because I had a feeling I might be behind when the original pre-flop raiser bet out on the flop and then called when I check-raised.

So he'd bet and call a check-raise if you are behind. How would you expect him to play if you are ahead?