My TPTK is checkraised on the turn

[Luke]

A good, 10-handed Party 3/6 game. I've been playing for about 10 minutes when this hand took place. I have not seen the EP in question show any hands yet, nor do anything noteworthy. So we'll assume he's an average Party 3/6 player, whatever that means.

I'm dealt A /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif in MP. The EP limps, I raise, LP calls, CO calls, everyone else including the blinds fold. 4 of us to the flop for about 9 sbs:

Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

EP checks, I bet, LP timesout, CO folds and EP calls.

2 live players and 1 all-in to the turn for 11 sbs:

2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

EP checks, I bet, EP check-raises. Your move and plan for the river...

[Festus22]

Calling down would be the routine play. He certainly is representing the flush or possibly a third deuce. If he really is typical, I'd expect to lose this hand more often than not but not quite enough to justifying a fold. If he was a total maniac, 3-betting might be an option but that would take a pretty good read.

[Joe Tall]

With and all-in player a 3-flush and a paired board, you can probably fold. However, being online LL, calling down is not out of the question.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Luke]

I resorted to call down mode and the EP showed K /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif for the turned flush winner when a blank hit on the river. The all-in player showed Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

I posted this hand because when I'm headsup in a decent sized pot with top pair or an overpair and I'm raised on the turn when a flush or a flush draw gets there or the board pairs a low pair, I tend to just drop into call down mode.

I'm curious if that's most people's "default play" in similar situations. In this hand, I'm basically getting 4-1 from the pot if I plan on calling both the turn and the river bet. You guys think this is enough?

With all that said, as Joe alluded to, this hand is not so typical because it was "protected" by the all-in player so the EP player most likely was not bluffing or even semi-bluffing. I didn't properly take this into account at the time and if I did, I think I would have folded.

Luke

[Kluddeludde]

[ QUOTE ]
With all that said, as Joe alluded to, this hand is not so typical because it was "protected" by the all-in player so the EP player most likely was not bluffing or even semi-bluffing. I didn't properly take this into account at the time and if I did, I think I would have folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's a typical 3/6 player at party, don't be so sure that he isn't bluffing, or semi-bluffing for that matter. I've seen too many bluffs and semi-bluffs at party when players are all-in or have timed out, that I tend to totally ignore this fact against a typical player there.

Kluddeludde

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I've seen too many bluffs and semi-bluffs at party when players are all-in or have timed out, that I tend to totally ignore this fact against a typical player there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are reffering to the opponent going all-in. In Luke's situation, a 3rd party was all-in and he was check-raised by another opponent.

Yes, there are many all-in desparation/bluffers out there but when there is one and another player makes a move on higher streets on a scary board, surely you can give merit to the other player, due to the fact the pot is 'protected' by the all-in player.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[tripdad]

if your first instinct told you he was bluffing, re-raise. you will be right more than half the time--at least i am. i've even forced laydowns in very similar situations.

however, your instinct told you that you were beaten, right? check call means you think you will lose, right? drawing dead, right? it isn't a sin to fold top pair/top kicker.

fold it!

cheers!

[steveyz]

There is also the possibility that your opponent thinks that they can beat the all-in 3rd party (people tend to go all-in with nothing a lot) but can't beat you so they try to bluff you out of the pot. So many of my "crying calls" at Party 3/6 have turned out to be winners that calling down is automatically unless you have a very good read on your opponent.

[DarkKnight]

You're not drawing dead against the most likely result (a flush) since you've got 4 outs to make the fullhouse.

The pots laying 8 1/2:1 and there's always the possibility that EP's bluffing. Even if you 75% sure he's got the flush, a call is not way out of the question.

...got an idea... be right back....

I setup a quick pokertracker query (can't guarantee I didnt overlook something) but here's what I found...

In 569 hands with a preflop raiser and a turn check-raise the turn-check raiser was the winner of the hand 415 times (about 72.9%)

I'm ignoring lots of considerations but the EV of calling here is about + 1.1 BB assuming you'll have to call again on the river.

DK