BB against UTG

[PrayingMantis]

Hi all,

20$+2$ SNG, 8 people left, blinds are 25/50. It's been a pretty loose - aggressive table. You are first with T2840, played loose and pushed people off pots.

UTG (T2025) limps. He played only very few hands, in one of them he re-raised big PF, and pushed on the flop, after it was checked to him by the original raiser. The original raiser then folded.

Now all fold to you, which is not common here. You check on BB with 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif. It's only the two of you.

Flop: 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

You check, he bets 200. You call.

Turn: 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

You check, he checks.

River: 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif

You bet 450. He raises you all-in.

Your move? And any other comments?


PrayingMantis

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Fold. I'll give him credit for beating TP/WK.

Bet this flop. The reason you can't call the all-in on the river is this hand played out precisely as expected if he limped with 44.

[ohkanada]

Fold, why go to battle with top pair and weak kicker.

Ken Poklitar

[The Prince]

Hi,

I would fold. Can you smell the AA?

Basically, when a player shows aggression like that on the river, top pair is usually not good, especially with a weak kicker.

[PrayingMantis]

OK, if Kurn and Ken say "fold", I'll see that as a consensus, and apologize for using this trick (first time for me), that is switching between me and the opponent.

It was me who limped from UTG with TT, hoping that, as usual, few others will limp, and if I spike my set - good - if not - I'm leaving. Strangely enough, all folded, and it was me and BB.

I bet the flop with my 2nd pair, and when he called I put him on any pair: 33% for each. when the second 2 fell on the turn I checked behind him.
His bet on the river didn't signify a set (as far as I could read him) so when I pushed I put him on a weak Q or 9, and thought it should be too risky for him to call there, with his very healthy stack, against a rather tight player. But he called with his TPWK, and I was out. I guess it was a bad move (against this particular opponent). Or wasn't it?

If you have any thoughts regarding *my* play now, I'll be more than happy to read...

PrayingMantis

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

His play was suspect to say the least. Heads-up or with two opponents, I'm usually betting top pair from the BB. If I bet the flop and am called, I'm likely to bet again when the deuce pairs.

[Prickly Pete]

If you put him on one of the pairs on the flop (reasonable), it seems a hand like A2 is possible. Checking on the turn when the 2nd 2 hit is certainly in line with someone slowplaying. Then betting the river after missing the checkraising opportunity. I'm not saying he had to have a 2 (as obviously he didn't), but it looks like a possible holding.

[PrayingMantis]

I think this particular player, as a bit tricky one, wouldn't have bet the pot with trip 2 after his check-raise failed, but rather bet less, maybe half the pot, trying to represent weakness.

I felt that his pot-bet on the river meant he doesn't have a monster (he played a lot of hands, so I had quite a good read of him, or at least thought so). My mistake was in assuming he will fold his mediocre hand to an all-in, and obviously he didn't. He couldn't possibly asses me as a consistent bluffer. I'll say more (trying to get into his head a bit): I'm pretty sure he called my all-in knowing he is beaten, just couldn't lay down his TP. I bet he was pretty surprised to see my TT.

I think this hand is all about reading a player.

PrayingMantis

[CrisBrown]

Hiya P.M.,

I think this was just one of "those" hands, and another example of not betting marginal hands for value against tight opponents. He was afraid to bet strong because of his weak kicker. You were afraid to bet strong for fear of an overpair. To that extent, you were both playing the hand well. Your big bluff wasn't a bad move, as many players would have laid down top-pair-weak-kicker there, and you could have taken the pot with the second-best hand (which you have to do sometimes). All in all, I wouldn't beat yourself (or him) up too much.

Cris

[PrayingMantis]

Hey Cris,

Thanks for the reply, but I don't quite understand.

[ QUOTE ]
... another example of not betting marginal hands for value against tight opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean that *he* shouldn't have bet on the river for value, against me, as I am a tight player? He is surely not a tight player... But at the end of your comment you say we both played it right? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ QUOTE ]
He was afraid to bet strong because of his weak kicker. You were afraid to bet strong for fear of an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would I be afraid of a big pair? Do you mean that *he* was afraid of *me* having a big pair (which makes sense), and therefore didn't bet strong? but on what street?

(Edit: If you mean by an overpair, him having top-pair, then I understand what you are saying here... /images/graemlins/grin.gif. When I read overpair I think of an overpair to the board.)

Please elaborate,

PrayingMantis

[CrisBrown]

Hiya P.M.

I may have confused the "he" and "you" because you had switched sides, so ... let me try to make myself clearer....

The player with TT is (or ought to be) reluctant to bet for value on a Q-high flop, for fear of an overpair (someone has hit the Q).

The player with Q-rag is (our ought to be) reluctant to bet for value on a Q-high flop, because of kicker trouble.

At a tight table, or against a tight opponent, the average starting hand played, and the average hand continued, tends to be better. That's the definition of "tight." So, at a tight table or against a tight opponent, you shouldn't bet for value (i.e.: a bet that you want to be called) with a marginal hand (e.g.: 2nd pair), because callers are likely to have you beaten. You bluff and semi-bluff more, and bet for value less.

In that sense, he was playing correctly to check-call as a bluff-catcher, and you were playing correctly to try to take the pot down by betting strong rather than betting to get called by a worse hand.

Your bluff got caught. Okay. That happens. No need to beat yourself up over it, or decide never to do it again, because it was still a good way to play the hand, given what you had sniffed out. Many players would have folded to your all-in river bet there; enough that the bluff is probably profitable. This one didn't. Oh well.

Cris