At the Old Ballgame

[andyfox]

The games are extremely loose at Commerce this week, with many players in town for the tournament. There have been 4 or 5 40-80 games by about noon every day.

There's a mix of loose/aggressive and loose/passive players. As the nature of the games has changed, I've relaxed my non-overlimping standards because it looks like so much fun. For example:

A bunch of limpers, I think 4 or 5 and I overlimp on the button with 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Flop comes T /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I look forward to folding when everyone checks to me. Everyone! I take a called strike and check.

The turn, of course, is the 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I'm wondering whether it's going to be 2 or 3 bets by the time it gets to me. Instead, everyone checks to me! Again! I bet, wondering whether to tip the dealer one dollar or two when I get just four callers. Swing and a miss, strike two?

River is the J /images/graemlins/spade.gif. A-B-C-ish small blind bets out. The other 3 fold!

I didn't want to leave the batter's box with the bat on my shoulder. So I call for the size of the pot.

Strike three, a garden variety single, or a home run?

[Mikey]

"you mean the dealer didn't muck your cards this time??"


the best way to play this is. Talk to the SB and ask him what he has? When he doesn't respond for the first 5-6 seconds, keep yapping at him.

Ask him why he didn't bet the turn when he had the straight?
Ask him why he didn't lead the flop when he had the straight draw?

Tell him you hate spliting pots.

Ask him if indeed he does have a straight?

You'll get a response sooner or later out of him. They all talk after a certain period of time, and then just then once he yaps....
MAKE YOUR FINAL DECISISON!!!

Use your experience here.

You can talk while you play can't you.

[mike l.]

this stop n go is almost always a straight. wait. strike that. it's always a straight.

what wouldve been so lovely about this hand is you made a set and lost with it and only lost 1.5 big bets.

[David Steele]

You have been watching too much poker on TV.

D.

[MMMMMM]

What a colossal waste of everyone's time.

Low-level players who try that crap with good players get the silent cold shoulder and the longer they keep it up the more they earn the scorn of the entire table.

Don't you have anything better to do in a poker game...like getting on to the next hand? If you do this crap regularly and in a prolonged manner, the entire table would be well justified in Joey-Bitching you right there on the green felt.

Fortunately most players who rely on such stalling tactics instead of learning to really play, rarely make it out of the low limits for any significant length of time. And that's right where that crap belongs: in the $1/$2 game.

[Mikey]

"What a colossal waste of everyone's time."

a colossal was of everyones time would be things like changing the deck, or bringing in a fill because lazy poker players don't get their chips at the cage. Also dealers who deal very slowly and don't keep the game moving is a waste of time.

"Low-level players who try that crap with good players get the silent cold shoulder."

I have yet to meet the person who sits there like a statue when they are in the middle of a hand and someone is talking to them. They are few and far between.

"the more they earn the scorn of the entire table."
now that is not true unless they are constantly doing it.
if you do it once or even twice when a situation comes up like this, I doubt that anyone will say anything.


"Don't you have anything better to do in a poker game...like getting on to the next hand?"

Ohh yeah, let me see if I could save $80 on this hand and fold or just pay the guy off so he'll show me a straight because after all that is not good poker edict to ask him what he has. My aspirational reference group, the 9 guys around the table, won't except me in their club anymore and I'll have to find a new hobby.

"If you do this crap regularly and in a prolonged manner, the entire table would be well justified in Joey-Bitching you right there on the green felt."

How often do you run into these decisions?? How many times a night are you faced with such a decision?? Gimme a break.

"Fortunately most players who rely on such stalling tactics instead of learning to really play, rarely make it out of the low limits for any significant length of time."

Fortunately??
Don't you mean unfortunatley, I assume you like to play with really good players because then you can't bitch and moan about a bad beat, because usually they will have you beat from the beginning and you outdrew them.
But then when you do raise with your good hands, you don't get paid off.

"And that's right where that crap belongs: in the $1/$2 game."

In the 1-2 game, I hardly see people talking it up at a 1-2 game, they are concentrating really hard on what "THEY ARE HOLDING" not what there opponnent is holding.
This type of play would be an auto-call on the river in the 1-2 game.

[mike l.]

good rebuttal mikey. i thought your post was a good one. i did, however, feel that it was inappropriate for this particular situation (read my post for the reason why).

bottom line: some of the semi-nitty players here are scared to death of what you suggest. it would mean playing poker.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[mike l] bottom line: some of the semi-nitty players here are scared to death of what you suggest. it would mean playing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt very many people are scared to death of people doing this. Maybe scared to death of being annoyed to death.

[ QUOTE ]
[Mikey] You'll get a response sooner or later out of him. They all talk after a certain period of time, and then just then once he yaps....

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno. I don't consider myself very nitty at all and this sounds like a pretty annoying approach to decision-making in a limit game. Big-bet, different story.

[mike l.]

"Maybe scared to death of being annoyed to death."

how could annoying solid bottom line hand-per-hour players ever be wrong? i mean, god forbid, they may get so annoyed they LEAVE or something!?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
how could annoying solid bottom line hand-per-hour players ever be wrong? i mean, god forbid, they may get so annoyed they LEAVE or something!?

[/ QUOTE ]

Things that annoy solid players are typically just as annoying to terrible players as well. A solid player is more likely to just say "shut up and do something already," whereas a bad player is more likely to get flustered, not have fun, and leave. Plus, in general, I think it's a lot more fun for everyone if all players just keep annoying behavior to a minimum, but that's just my personal opinion as I'm primarily there to play some cards in as enjoyable a setting as possible.

Somewhat humorous somewhat related anecdote. A friend of mine and I play together on a semi-regular basis in some of the same NL games around here. When faced with a big decision on the river, he will sometimes ask his opponent "Do you want me to call?" to get a read. One time I found myself HU against him at the river w/ TPTK on a pretty innocuous looking board. I fired out a bet and was confronted w/ a medium-sized raise. So, I asked him, "Do you want me to call?" He replied back immediately, "That doesn't work on me."

[mike l.]

"Things that annoy solid players are typically just as annoying to terrible players as well."

yeah i saw that one coming. fair enough.

ill throw this in the mix: i dont think anyone would be annoyed by the things mikey suggested in the games i play in. they would think it quite funny.

but then again, we pay a drop not a time collection. so set ups and deck changes dont bother us as much either. makes for a friendlier game, rather than one where people sit around and yell "hurry the f+ck up already!" whenever someone calls for time.

now if youre going to tell me that you guys up there would still be annoyed and you have a drop and not time collection then all i can say is you dont get enough sun. that would explain it.

[Ulysses]

I play in both drop and time games. In the time games, some of the nits are so nitty about getting hands out it's ridiculous. I usually just take that time to order another drink.

I think many people here would feel the same way I do in a limit game. The first time a guy spends a long time on the river pondering a decision and trying to get a read on his opponent, blah blah blah, it's often quite amusing. But usually (and not saying this is the case with Mikey), these guys tend to do that over and over again. It's often amusing the second time as well. After that, it's annoying not just because it slows the game down, but because it's just stupid. Somewhere around the 24th time it becomes funny again.

[Mikey]

Mike thank you for chiming in here. When I get a little backing from a well-respected poster, you help build up my credibility.

Thanks.

[mike l.]

on the river i usually dont mind it even if theyre chronic. sometimes i take a really long time. after all the pots are HUGE so often down here so it's worth taking the extra time. i hate time collection games, did i mention that?

anyways, the thing that drives me nuts (and it shouldnt because it means im playing against self-taughts who dont know what theyre doing) is people who ponder and take a lot of time hand after hand PREFLOP. lol, seems i see that at least every other session, drives me nuts and makes me laugh all at once.

[AJo Go All In]

[MMMMMM]

If you want to ask the guy a question or go into the tank once in a while that's one thing and OK. But to hold up the game deliberately stalling and asking the guy question after question is ridiculous, especially in a limit game. (By the way every player I've talked to thought Dutch Boyd looked like a moron doing that with Moneymaker).

Also, saving a bet usually isn't really saving a full bet. Tells are only partially useful because you must weigh the value of the tell against the pot odds you are getting. So if you have to rely on tells it's generally a close decision anyway and hence only a fraction of the bet is what you are really saving.

How about if everyone played the way you are advocating? You'd be lucky to get 15 hands an hour, lol.

Also, keeping the spirit of the game light and easy is helpful to your bottom line. As Mason pointed out, if bad players see you giving a lot of thought to decisions, they may start to do the same and become much more serious--which is exactly what you don't want them to do.

So try thinking somewhat about what is good for the game, because if it's good for the game, chances are it is good for you too. The converse also applies.