AKs bb vs tricky player

[spatz]

Online $200 buy in. Blinds 1-2. I'm in the bb with A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif. . My stack is about 200, a tricky player I've played with several times is in MP and about $300. Folded to him, and he raises 10x bb. Folded around to me, and I call. Flop comes A 8 2 rainbow.

I make a pot sized bet on the flop and he smooth calls. What I know about this player is that he likes to wait till the turn to show strength. In particular he likes to play any pair preflop for just about any raise, flop a set, go all in on the turn, get the callers, and double through them.

The turn is a blank. I'm not sure what to do here. I do know that if I check he will put in a pot sized bet (at least). So I fire a 1/2 pot sized bet at him. (I know I showed weakness) He then goes all in on me.

I think about it for awhile and muck.

Did I play this weak? Where would you have done differently? What is a good strategy against a tricky player that you know likes to wait till the turn to put in a big bet with strength?

TIA,
Tom

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
What is a good strategy against a tricky player that you know likes to wait till the turn to put in a big bet with strength?


[/ QUOTE ]

In general, I like to overbet the flop against such players. Betting 1.5-2.5x the pot will let you know much more cheaply if they have a hand. Virtually no such player as you described will call an oversized flop bet without a hand that can beat one pair. I just don't give them the chance to be too tricky. If I am going to bet the turn, I won't make it a small bet. You have to take a stand, especially against players who like to make moves on the turn. I don't like to be bullied, so often I just don't give them the chance. You gotta have huevos if you wanna have the ranchero sauce.

al

[SpaceAce]

I seriously doubt you're beaten here and I don't think betting less than the pot size on the turn was a good idea. I think you're more likely to be facing another AK than AA, 88 or 22 but I also don't think I'd feel good calling off all my money on top pair in this situation.

You made a point of telling us that he makes this move when he's strong but you also described him as tricky. Would he make a move like this with KK or AQ after you showed weakness on the turn? If the answer is "no" than this is an easy laydown, otherwise you have to consider calling because you don't want this guy taking pots off you with the second best hand too often.

SpaceAce

[Richie Rich]

[The Dude]

I think you got outplayed here, and I would have been happy to bet my stack on it - if I were in your situation. You described this player as very tricky, so I'm going to be suspicious of his play.

On the flop, I would have underbet the pot in this situation, considering that there are exactly ZERO draws here you are afraid of. The hope is that he interprets that as weakness. If he comes way over the top, go all-in. If he min-raises (or closer to that than raising the pot), then call.

On the turn, I am going for a check-raise here. The only thing you are behind here is a set, and if this player is sane he wouldn't raise 10x the BB with 88 or 22. The chances of him having AA are extremely slim (considering the other two are accounted for).

Since you have showed weakness, his all-in sure seems to me like he doesn't want you to call. It looks to me like he put you on a small A and wanted you to fold it. In your shoes, I want to do anything I can to enduce him to make this all-in bet. You got it, then folded. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Against non-tricky, very strait-forward players I play this differently. Against a tricky player, I give him much less credit for the strong hand (when he plays it like this).

Just my thoughts, I hope they help.

[spacemonkey]

I'm happy to take this hand all the way given the stack sizes involved. If he has AA or 88, good for him. Also, I much prefer a check raise on the flop here, because if he has a high pocket pair, even KK, or a hand like KQ, he will usually have a go at the pot himself, but if you bet out, he has an easy fold. I find a lot of people overbet their non-premium aces ie AJ and lower. Any limpers between you and him that you're worried about - if not why not reraise preflop?
What are this person's raising standards? Does he raise often preflop and what hands have you seen him show down at the end? How loose is he preflop - what percentage of hands does he play? The looser he is, the more likely I am to put him on a worse ace than you, though I would hate to lose to A8!

[Eric P]

not reading other posts, shove pre-flop, why not? AKs is real good, if you do this he probably folds any hand except for 3 or 4 which are obvious. The fact that there is 25 or so dollars in there to win is big incentive. I do the same thing with AA and KK that i do with AKs which is just shove, if they got the big 2 they got the big 2 and so what, it doesn't happen that often. An i can't tell you how often AQ calls, it's pretty good. Just one option though, certainly yours is another.

Yes you played it weak, i re-rasie pre-flop, or if i call i overbet the pot when i flop the A or K, especially the A. betting 40 is no good on the turn either, it's all or nothing if you ask me, and i don't see how it can be nothing, unless you think almost for certain that the smooth call means your losing (unless some draw hit on the turn... but you seem to think he is slowplaying.)

either way i belive a re-rasie pre-flop is correct, probably to something like 70 or more.

[Eric P]

he made it 20 to go pre-flop? What hands does he do this with? I know i already bosted but i'm confused now. AKo seems like the hand he is most likely to do it with, but if fhe makes these huge raises with KK then that is good news. Even if he tends to do this wityh KK he is much less likely to do this with AA , i think if yo ucall and hit your ace the hand is over and you are all-in at somepoint, no getting away from it. Anyway I still think a re-raise pre-flop is in order. And once you hit the ace you are commited

[spatz]

Thanks very much for the responses. All very good ideas that I will be experimenting with over the next couple of weeks.

I agree that a re-raise pre-flop would probably be a better move to probe for information. Let's say I pot a re-raise, and he comes back over the top of me. Easy fold? Just wondering how you guys would re-act to this play.

The reason I am afraid of a set on the turn is because he was first to act in late MP. I wouldn't be suprised if he was trying to win the pot right there with medium pair. That combined with the smooth call on the flop made me very suspicious. On the other hand, he could have very easily been on AQ down to AJ, and thought I was trying bully him out of the pot when the scare card (Ace) hit, and was just giving me rope to hang myself.

Just some of my thinking during the hand.

Again thanks for the comments, very informative!

Tom

[SomeName]

The confusing thing here for me is your "tricky" adjective. Is this a good player or a bad one? Is this an overaggresive player? does he like to make moves? The one thing no one brought up is bluff inducing him the whole way.

[muzungu]

Another way of thinking about this:

If you're planning to bail to decent resistance when the A comes on the flop, you shouldn't be playing this in the first place, and should fold preflop. If not, then you should think you're ahead, and call his all-in instead of folding on the turn.

As for my read, I'd put him on AK here, with the possibility of AQ or KK or a smaller pair. I think if he's got bullets or 88 he's going to play less aggressively on the turn and try to sucker you in for more, given your weak turn bet. If I had AA here I might smooth call and try to value bet the river, or raise smaller.

I also don't like the idea of a preflop reraise. If he goes all-in, you probably bail, and if he calls and no A or K comes, you're in a rough spot as well, with more $ committed to the pot.

-muz

[muzungu]

Al- do you ever checkraise the flop in these sort of situations? I've been trying this recently, and that would be my first thought here. It accomplishes basically the same goals you mentioned (with even more force), and gets some money out of them if they have someting like QQ. Having raised big preflop, you've got to figure they will bet if checked to on the flop.

-muz

[spatz]

Definately a good player. The games are usually filled with calling stations that can't get away from hands like TPTK, so he likes to wait back and flop a monster then push in on people that can't get away from a hand. At the same time I've seen him make moves on pots on the turn when he sees weakness. So I really put myself in a bad situation by making a weak bet on the turn.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I probably check-raise in no limit more than most players do. I of course only do so when A) I do not intend to fold for any bet, or B) when my check-raise is small enough relative to stacks where I can do so, but still safely fold to a large reraise.

al

[spatz]

What would you do here if the raiser smooth called or pushed in against your 1.5x - 2x pot bet? Just curious. Using my example you would have commited about 1/2 your stack, and the pot would be about 200 if he smooth called and 400 if he went to the felt.

TIA,
Tom

[Richie Rich]

I think the "beauty" of betting 1.5x to 2x the size of the pot on the flop is that you get a pretty clear picture how you relatively "strong" your hand is, while giving poor odds to those on any kind of draw. If he smooth calls your bigger-than-pot bet, then more often than not he's got something that can beat you. (Like two pair, trips, etc.)

In this case, I doubt he would've raised 10BB with pocket 8s or 2s. Pocket As? Sounds very likely...but what's the probability of him actually holding that, since you're already holding one of them while the other is on the board. Smells like he had pocket K/Q/Js, and was trying to push you away from buying the pot.

[tewall]

Once he called you on the flop, you need to make a decision about your hand. How likely is he to call you with a hand that has you beat? If he's more likely to be ahead, check/fold the turn. If not, check/raise the turn.

If you check, he's very likely to bet, so you're not likely giving up any money by letting him go first as he's not likely to be holding a hand that he would call a bet with but not bet himself.

[RollaJ]

TPTK against a "tricky player" and you fold a $270 pot on the turn with only $70 left to call?
You might wanna practice a bit more at the $50 game, thats really weak /images/graemlins/frown.gif