to call or not to call? That is my question....

[ThaSaltCracka]

NLHE freeze out tourney last weekend. We were down to 30 players after a start of 40, My tournament was going pretty well until my pocket kings lost to my buddies AK, oh well at least it was a friend. Anyways after moving to 3 tables I had about 675, out of 1000 left. I was dealt KTo, UTG+2, blinds were 50/100. UTG calls, so do I, everyone folds to Button who calls, SB calls.

flop was Jx 9x 8x, suits aren't relevant, runner runner for any possible flush.

SB & BB both check and UTG goes all in for 475

what would you guys do here? am I short stacked enough to call this? I am at the point stack wise, where I should definelty be trying to double up.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

you're getting 975:475 odds if I read your post right.

Assume the bettor has AJ:

from twodimes:

pokenum -h as jd - ks td -- 8c 9h js
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Js 8c 9h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Jd 573 57.88 405 40.91 12 1.21 0.585
Ks Td 405 40.91 573 57.88 12 1.21 0.415

in this case you're getting 9.75:4.75 pot odds while only a 58.5% to 41.5% dog.

EV = 0.415 x 975 - 0.585 x 400 = 404.625 - 234 = 170.625

Given the assumptions I made, I would probably go for it with the open-ender and overcard. You need the chips and the blinds are high for your stack size.

al

[CrisBrown]

Hiya Salt,

Uggh. Tough situation. As al capone noted, you are likely behind but getting decent odds to call. If you fold here, you're down to less than 6xBB with the blinds coming up, so you'll probably have to move in on one of the next 2-3 hands ... with a hand that might well be a worse underdog than an overcard-plus-four-draw. Given your stack and the pot odds, I think calling all-in is the better play.

Another question, though, is whether it might have been better to simply push in pre-flop. KTo plays better in a heads-up pot than in a community pot, and the limp itself was over 1/7th of your stack, basically pot-committing you if you hit anything at all (as you did here). Pushing in pre-flop gives you a decent chance to take the T250 in the pot already, which is almost 1/3rd of your stack and a bit of breathing space with the blinds coming. I think I would have pushed in rather than limping, unless the table was so loose that you were sure to get 2-3 callers anyway.

*shrugs*

Tough spot. I hope it worked out well for you.

Cris

[ohkanada]

Fold pre-flop. With 675 and blinds of 50-100, you can not afford to be limping with trash hands (or almost any hands). You should be in raise or muck mode. Once UTG calls KT should be quickly in the muck.

On the flop the decision is likely close. It would be better to be the initial bettor on the flop but with your tiny stack it may well be time to gamble.

Ken Poklitar

[ohkanada]

Cris,

Not sure if pushing all-in after an UTG limp makes any sense either with a hand like KTo. Seems a muck is in order. I agree just calling with that stacksize and blinds is wrong.

Ken Poklitar

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

With less than 10x BB do not limp. Ever. Not once. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that short-stacked in a tournament, there is no "it depends" significant enough to make me limp.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Ken,

My thought was that he's going to be going in on one of the next two hands anyway, more than likely, as he can't afford to sit through the blinds. KTo isn't a hand I'd like to push with vs. an UTG limp, but it may well be the least bad situation he's likely to get.

Cris

[kerssens]

I'd push in this situation. UTG sounds like is in the same situation, could have a piece or another 10, gotta think that a Q, 9 or K will be enough to win.....is that the hand that broke you?

[ThaSaltCracka]

after reading everyones response I realize I shouldn't have even played this hand, but oh well I did. Consequently I folded to UTG as did everyone else. I think I should have called him.

anyways on the next hand I had pocket sevens UTG and went all in, probably the best play all things considered, I mean I could fold and then lose probably 150 on the next two hands, but whatever....
I lost to the BB, who was also all in with 8Ts, he hit his flush, my other chips were covered by one other player who called with his pocket Aces.

I have another question, at what point do you decide to switch to either all in or muck. When your stack is 4xBB, 5xBB, etc...?

[HUSKER'66]

Salt,

I agree with a lot of the other posters in the fact that you should have folded preflop. That being said, with your stack size and the blinds coming quick, you have to take the best of what you got while you still got it. (I hope that makes sense)IF you had decide to limp, you should have probably gone all in after the flop.

To answer your other question, I may be wrong in my opinions, but I'm going out in a blaze of glory if I have a semi strong hand and less than 5xBB.

[ThaSaltCracka]

me too! If I am done I might as well go out swinging!

[CrisBrown]

Hiya Salt,

[ QUOTE ]
I have another question, at what point do you decide to switch to either all in or muck. When your stack is 4xBB, 5xBB, etc...?

[/ QUOTE ]

My general rule is that if my pre-flop raise would be more than 1/3rd of my stack, I'm going to push in instead. The reasoning is that for 1/3 of my stack, if I'm called, I'll still have enough to make a pot-sized or nearly pot-sized bet at the flop, to chase away drawing hands. If my pre-flop raise is more than 1/3 of my stack, I don't have any leverage left if I'm called. So, to get maximum leverage for my stack, I'll push all-in pre-flop instead.

So if I'm at 9xBB, I'm probably going to push in rather than raise 3xBB, and especially if there's a limper ahead of me. If I don't like the cards enough for that, I muck and preserve my leverage, rather than dribbling chips away on limps.

Similarly, if I'm at 14xBB and there's a 3xBB raise, I'm pushing in if I'm reraising at all. If there's a 3xBB raise, my minimum reraise is to 5xBB, more than 1/3 of my stack and almost certain to be called, so if I'm going to reraise, I'm pushing in.

And similarly, if I have 14xBB and there are two limpers ahead of me, my minimum reasonable raise would be 5xBB (roughly the pot), and again that's be more than 1/3 of my stack, so I'll push in if I'm going to raise at all. And I am unlikely to call here without a hand that I'm willing to push all-in on if a raise comes behind me.

These are three illustrations of the same basic principle: if my pre-flop raise would be more than 1/3rd of my stack, I'm going to push all-in if I raise at all.

Cris

[tripdad]

you shoulda folded pre-flop.

cheers!

[ThaSaltCracka]

thanks, did you get that insight from reading one of the other replies?