Should I have played this hand?

[TheGrifter]

Early stages of 10+1 SnG; 7 left

I'm dealt K J offsuit UTG. I fold and the following action ensues.


> Game # 22,475,557 starting.
> Dealing Hole Cards
> A1B2C345 folded
> -MrClean- folded
> dms7 folded
> odonnell23 called for 30
> mr_mik folded
> loanman9 raised for 45
> cardburner1 called for 30
> odonnell23 called for 30
> Dealing the Flop(4c 4h Kc)
> loanman9 bet for 30
> cardburner1 called for 30
> odonnell23 folded
> Dealing the turn(3h)
> loanman9 bet for 60
> cardburner1 called for 60
> Dealing the river(7s)
> loanman9 bet for 180
> cardburner1 called for 180
> cardburner1 shows Two Pair, Kings over Fours
> loanman9 mucked
> cardburner1 wins 720 with Two Pair, Kings over Fours

Winner had K 10.

I generally fold this hand preflop in early position with less than 4 players left. In this situation I likely would have bet/raised the flop and folded to a large reraise. Who plays this hand and am I being too tight? Thanks.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Easy fold. One point though. Try not to post raw hand histories. Turn it into a narrative, it's a lot easier to follow.

[TheGrifter]

Thanks, that's the answer I was hoping for. And will do on the narrative.

[itsmarty]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm dealt K J offsuit UTG. I fold and the following action ensues.

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, whether or not a play was correct is not affected by the following action.

Barring any reads on the players involved, you wouldn't be far wrong folding KJ-off every time when UTG 7-handed. If you need any convincing, think about the post you'd write when you got married to the flopped King and lost half your stack to the BB limper with A4-suited /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Martin

[TheGrifter]

Thanks for the reply. I just throw the action in there to spice things up, I'm not much of an academic /images/graemlins/wink.gif. The main reason I posted this was to make sure that my game was in line with the shrinking table.

Obviously at SOME point it becomes correct to play KJo (HU for example I play it every time.) but just wasn't sure how much I should alter my play when down to 6-7 players.

Thanks for the insight.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I don't understand why you fold this hand. In a tournament you cannot afford to be this tight, limp in with it, I would every time, I would even think about raising with this if I was late posistion.
I am not telling you to play this just because you would have won, I am telling you to play this because this could be the best hand you see for 2-3 rounds. Why wouldn't you play this? In tournament play, generally the river consists of two players, vying for the best hand. It is highly likely you have the best King kicker on the river with this. if a jack comes up on the flop you are way ahead, as long as there was no large preflop raise, anything which would inidcate an over pair. Someone explain why convincingly? for the sake of argument of course.

[ohkanada]

I hope you are joking.

KJo UTG in the muck! Don't get into a habit of playing dominated hands.

Ken Poklitar

[ThaSaltCracka]

I really don't think you can throw this hand away. Now Ken, I am more than open to hear why. Seriously, explain this for me. I am not the type of person who always thinks their right so break it down for me, like I'm a 5 year old /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[TheGrifter]

Well, obviously since I asked for assistance I had my doubts about folding this hand in general, although in a full tourney table early it would be easy for me. My reasons for folding were as follows:

- It is still relatively early and KJ is a "trouble" hand. If I flop a pair I can easily be dominated. How do I know I'm up against K10 and not KQ?

- For the reason above if I do play KJ I do NOT want to play it in a raised pot. In an unraised pot I can have more confidence in KJ, although I still have to look out for cheap two pairs, etc. Therefore, in early position I am often throwing money away to call since I will fold to a raise.

- While you may be right that this is the best hand I'll see for 2-3 rounds I would much rather play a marginal hand in late position than UTG (assuming I do at all). Especially relatively early in a tourney.

Again, those are just my reasons, I could be wrong. Thanks for bringing up another point of view.

[La Brujita]

Salt are you joking or serious about playing this?

This should be an easy fold, basically in nl hold'em unsuited big cards go down in value. They will lose a big pot or win a small pot.

Position is also much more important in nl than limit which adds to the ease of the fold.

There is a concept of implied odds and reverse implied odds that is important re unsuited big cards but am too tired to discuss tonight.

[ThaSaltCracka]

okay I was going to try to quote what you said, But I cannot figure it out, anyways I like your points on subjects 2 &3, I will remember those.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I really don't want to hear anything about implied odds or anything like that, it confuses me anyways.
I read Grifter's response, I think maybe I got ahead of myself.
I will say this, I still think early in a tournament I would atleast try to limp with this, if the blinds are 10/15 or 15/30, I realize exactly what you guys are saying, but I think early in the tournament you can stillplay this. I dunno, unless that is WAY off, just a thought.

[CrisBrown]

Hiya Salt,

Even being something of a loose-aggressive player, I fold KJ (along with KQ, KT, QJ, and QT) UTG nearly every time at a full or near-full table. The exception would be if the table were squeaky tight and I thought I could take the blinds with a semi-steal. Even then, I'd fold it to any pressure.

I don't like to play KJ in a raised pot, because callers are too likely to have me dominated. Conversely, I don't like to limp with it, because offsuit big cards don't play all that well in multi-way pots. Multi-way pots tend to go to improved hands (two-pair or better), because there are more hands in play and thus a greater chance that the flop has hammered someone. Also, the better pot odds of a multi-way pot often justify chasing draws.

With a hand like KJ, an A-K-x or A-J-x flop is dangerous, because you may be looking at a bigger pair. A-K-J leaves you vulnerable to a higher two-pair, as AJ is often played for a limp, and of course QT has the straight. K-J-x will often give someone else a straight draw, and the multi-way pot will often give them correct odds to chase. K-x-x and J-x-x give you only one pair with kicker trouble, in a multi-way pot. Even A-Q-T is dangerous, because while you've made the straight, you're only a 2:1 favorite to AQ or AT, and they're almost certain to call. So even the flops that hit you (except for K-K-J) are dangerous.

So that means that any flop which hits you will force you to bet HUGE in order to deny proper drawing odds ... when you're out-of-position and don't know whether the flop has hit someone else harder. You're either going to win small pots (everyone folds), or lose big ones (a caller has you beaten or runs you down).

That's why I don't play Face-Face from UTG at a full table. Your mileage may vary.

Cris

[LetsRock]

KJo (and other like hands) are just too prone to putting you in a tight spot. Most of the experts will tell you to muck these hands from early position, and I don't know about everyone else, but I've had enough bad experiences with these hands from early position to have learned the lesson the hard way.

Like another poster said (who was paraphrasing one of the experts), you win small pots and lose big pots with these hands. I believe Dolly said something to the effect of KJ type hands being the biggest leaks in most amateurs games.

There's very few flops that make you comfortable that you have a good hand and it's hard to drive any hand from EP let alone one that you can't commit too.

That being said, if the table texture is passive, I will limp with these in the first couple rounds of SnGs just in case I hit a big flop. I'm very quick to lay it down if someone raises or shows serious aggression on the flop if I have just a small piece of the flop.

[ThaSaltCracka]

simple question... would any of you play this hand UTG if it was suited? I know if you use Sklansky's group rankings, the difference is 5 to 3. Would this have to be a loose table to play this UTG, or are you guys saying, much like Sklansky that you would play only groups 1 and 2 hands UTG?

[CrisBrown]

Hiya Salt,

I usually won't from UTG. Generally, if I'm going to play a hand from UTG, I want to play a hand that is or stands to become the best possible hand, because I need that margin to make up for my bad position. The only difference with KJs vs. KJo is that I might make a flush, but even so it's not going to be the nut flush unless the A of my suit hits the board. If three unders of my suit hit the board, I may well end up busted vs. someone who limped in with Axs of my suit....

All in all, even suited, to me the hand has more dangers than benefits. I'd rather wait for a better position, or a tighter table where I can semi-steal-raise.

Cris

[TheGrifter]

[ QUOTE ]
simple question... would any of you play this hand UTG if it was suited?

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the right table conditions I would. If the table has been very passive (with little preflop raising) and it is still early enough that the blinds are tiny compared to the stacks then I will try to limp in an see a flop here.

I'm not really concerned if I do pick up a flush about not having the ace because lots of hands will pay me off with their whole stack with as little as top pair (second pair, no pair, I play 10+1's /images/graemlins/laugh.gif ).

Also, the added flush potential to me is very important because I might pick up a four-flush draw plus top pair with an overcard or other hands that I can play much more aggresively out of position (than i would be able to with just a pair).

So basically, in an aggressive table or when the blinds are more than 5% of my stack and few players have busted out, I'll fold, if the conditions are right I plaly it. Not saying that's correct, but it's how I've been playing it.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I am not going to say this is alwsy the best play, it will get you in trouble now and then, but sometimes I raise here, especially if it is suited, you drive out hands like Axs, and sometimes, your EP raise isolates you against the blinds, or even steals them.
The way I see it, almost any EP raise, especially UTG shows immediate strength, so marginal hands, I would think, are less likely to play. True you will run into big hands, every now and then, but oh well. This is just a possible play, by no means the best play on average.