I love what TV poker has done for tourneys - check this hand out

[whiskeytown]

this is a great one...THIRD HAND in a $55 online tourney...(still going as I post this...) - unbelievable - if he had told me he had these cards, I'd have probably mucked believing he was lying...LOL

Here's the setup...I'm the BB, and opponent is UTG... and he raises out of the gate to 80 - there are two other callers, but they're gone by the flop, so I'm just deleting the misc. crapola
-------------------------------------

Transcript for game #271846260 requested by whiskeytown(colorache@hotmail.com)
*********** # 1 **************
PokerStars Game #271846260: Tournament #913588, Hold'em No Limit - Level I
(10/20) - 2004/02/03 - 15:01:48 (ET)
Table '913588 12' Seat #3 is the button
drainman: posts small blind 10
whiskeytown: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to whiskeytown [J/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif]
Best Mate: raises 60 to 80
Potsweeper: calls 80
drainman: calls 70
whiskeytown: calls 60
*** FLOP *** [T/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif]
drainman: checks
whiskeytown: checks
Best Mate: bets 80
whiskeytown: calls 80
*** TURN *** [T/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif] [T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif]
whiskeytown: checks
Best Mate: bets 160
whiskeytown: calls 160
*** RIVER *** [T/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif] [9/images/graemlins/spade.gif]
whiskeytown: checks
Best Mate: bets 300
whiskeytown: calls 300
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Best Mate: shows [8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif] (a pair of Tens)
whiskeytown: shows [J/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif] (two pair, Jacks and Tens)
whiskeytown collected 1400 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1400 | Rake 0
Board [T/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif]
Seat 5: whiskeytown (big blind) showed [J/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif] and won (1400) with two pair,
Jacks and Tens
Seat 6: Best Mate showed [8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif] and lost with a pair of Tens

--------------------
that guy was 194th out of 225....LOL - /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

RB

[ThaSaltCracka]

out of curiosity, did you call him all the way down because:
a. you thought your jacks were best
b. you were chasing a flush
c. you thought he was bluffing

just curious, because I would have had a hard time calling the whole way down

[whiskeytown]

well, B was definately the top of the list after the flop...I wouldn't say C except maybe as a semibluff...cause I've also seen too many players play their AK/AQ hard lately...and that was pretty close on my mind...that he was betting an AK/AQ/AJ - and had an A fallen (and not a club) - I might not have made it to the river...

truth is, I honestly though when he made the river bet he might have A/10 - but at that point, the costs (only about a third of my stack) - vs the fact that it was only the 3rd hand meant I had plenty of time to recover if I was wrong...suffice to say I play this hand much differently should I see overcards fall, but I never did...

and by calling, I am effectively getting to see what he's going to do before I do...I put myself in the last to act position...and in this case (raise preflop, unusual board, aggressive bettor) - I like that better then trying to bet him...and to be honest, he'd probably muck in the face of a bet anyways, so I probably got maximum profit from it...

[Acesover8s]

I realize that the point of this thread was not a hand criticism, but I noticed that Whiskey played this hand completely different that I would've.

I would've reraised it preflop, probably to 360-400. I would've fired out on the flop and if called slow down the rest of the way.

After reading some other posts I wonder if I do over play middle pairs in these things. What's the correct play?

[ThaSaltCracka]

hmmmm thats very interesting, nice play

[ThaSaltCracka]

I would probably raise preflop to 200, then call stubbornly the rest of the way, maybe even fold, it seems like a terrible flop for him, I know he has a flush draw, but I would think my jack wouldn't be good.

[peacemaker]

Hey whisky,

Nice finish in the tourny. I was watching the final table and you played well. Although I kind of smelled those pocket AA. /images/graemlins/grin.gif As soon as you limped in I thought you had a big hand. I just curious did you get the hand history to see what the other guy had? I don't know if I would have played it different.

Peace

[cferejohn]

I don't hate is play. If he was *calling* with 8-5, than sure, he's an idiot. Here he's just reading you for a single high club and thinking he can bluff you out on the river with a bet when a fourth one doesn't come. I'm sure he was pretty damned surprised to find you *also* had an overpair.

I would have:

a) Re-raised preflop

b) Raised to 300 on the flop. Against a single opponent, I feel pretty good about having the best hand right now. I put my opponent on overcards (or maybe a ten) with the A or K of /images/graemlins/club.gif. If re-raised, I could probably muck, but in addition to (I would think) making this guy lay his hand down, you would discourage future bluffs from anyone who was paying attention.

I also make a note on this guy as being very aggressive early. Against tight opponents, that can be a good strategy in no-limit. I find the best way to combat it is to make sure I play it hard when I feel like I have the best hand, so he knows that bluffing may cause him to get raised rather than just called (this should especially discourage semi-bluffing with good draws).

[TimTimSalabim]

I think the point of the post is that sometimes the correct play is to play it just the way he played it, particularly now with the popularity of the WPT. Let these jokers think that poker is only about bluffing, and give them an opportunity to bluff off their money.

[ThaSaltCracka]

you act like it was a bad bluff, I don't quite understand how whiskey kept calling, unless he had a great read on him.
I mean if he did, nice work Whiskey. But I still think it was a hard call, I mean how would Whiskey be reacting right now if his opponent had flopped a flush, what would you say about his play. I don't think I like Whiskey's constant calls, they don't seem like the play of someone who knows they are ahead, UNLESS as I said earlier, he had a read on his opponent. I like his opponents play, I mean some people don't like bluffs, but I would say that whenever I bluff a pot all the way to the turn or river I win 70% of the time, I am not trying to brag saying I am the world's greatest bluffer or anything like that, but I think a lot of people bluff in NL, especially tourneys.

I will repeat for the final time, if Whiskey had a read on his opponent and he knew he was bluffing, his play was good, you let him give you all of his chips.

[TimTimSalabim]

It's a horrible bluff so early in a tournament. It's high risk and low reward. And it would be a horrible mistake for whiskey to fold, simply because there are so many of these bluffers nowadays early in a tourney (they tend to bust out by mid-tourney). Also I see plenty of players raise before the flop with AK or AQ and they're gonna keep betting come hell or high water. That's why I would play like whiskey here, early on, just keep building up your stack on other player's mistakes. If the board was less scary, I might consider check-raising, but I think check-calling is fine here. Of course, later on in the tournament, you have to play aggressive and do more bluffing yourself, once all of these jokers have busted out and you're left with tough players.

[Grivan]

While I don't understand why whiskey was willing to risk so many chips this early in the tournament in order to call this down, I also hate this bluff by the opponent. It is the THIRD hand of the tournament I can understand calling the preflop raise trying to get a double up early with a perfect flop. On the flop there just aren't enough chips in the pot to justify this bluff.... he has plenty of time to find a real hand to accumulate chips with.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[whiskeytown]

THANK YOU...EXACTLY... - the worst bet was the preflop bluff, not the river bluff...IMHO - why anyone would do that this early is beyond me entirely...

and when I have JJ - 50 percent of the time, an overcard is gonna hit, and then I have to play differently, but this early on, with the flush draw and the overpair, I'll check call to the better - esp. if it puts me in a last to act position. - and I'll invest a few chips if no A/K/Q comes just to see if I've got it..

that and I've busted out a lot of times with JJ - hate that hand....

RB

[whiskeytown]

never did get it, but if you were watching, I think that was the only unraised pot the final table....LOL - esp. with Bridge in there betting EVERYTHING - but what can ya do...

I play AA in different ways, but slightly shortstacked on that aggressive table, I wanted to smoothcall any monsters and dump all in on the flop and hope they got a piece....or better yet, repop a raise preflop....there were several players there in the last 3-4 tables where if you got a hand and just checked it, they'd be all in by the river with nothing better then middle pair to get rid of you...just didn't happen that time.

I'm sorta going against common strategy...but I don't think you combat overaggressive players with more overaggressive play right back....just let em give your chips to you when you have the monster...

RB

[ThaSaltCracka]

I can't say I really like pocket Jacks either, but without sounding like a woe is me bad beat whiner, I think I have probably lost more with AK then any other high hand.

[peacemaker]

[ QUOTE ]
never did get it, but if you were watching, I think that was the only unraised pot the final table....LOL - esp. with Bridge in there betting EVERYTHING - but what can ya do...


RB

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I thought you had a big hand. You position really hurt you on that hand. I was shocked that Bridge didn't try to make a move with there. I may have tried the same thing.

congrats on the well played tourny.

Peace

[West]

I was at the table for that one, heh. Definitely made some notes on Best Mate. Do you remember beating my aces later? Called me down with KQ on a queen high flop, but never raised me....then hit a second queen on the river.

[sdplayerb]

Also the guy kept under betting the pot so bad, you had odds on your calls.
Had he turned up the heat, it would have been a tough call.
You can't reraise and UTG bet..as you know.
Not sure how you can reraise that Aces. Jacks real value there is to try to hit a set. But to such small bets it wreaks of a bluff, just call him down.

[cferejohn]

Well, I didn't *love* his opponent's play, but I could make sense of it. Usually when someone posts something of the "OMG! Look how bad this player is" vein it's something truly remarkable, like someone calling while playing the board or something.

Anyway, Whiskey, I guess my question would be "would you play the two overcards with a high club the same way through the turn?" If so, I would think you would certainly lay down to that river bet; that's why I don't think this specific bet is bad. Somewhere in the Bob Ciaffone and Stewart Ruben book someone (I think it is Ruben) said something like "in Big Bet poker, you never have to apologize for betting, only for calling". They said it better.

Playing super-aggressive when the blinds are deep is not the best strategy in the world for everyone, but some people seem to make it work. Actually, I'd be facinated to see a hand history (or better yet a tape) for a player who is usually aggressive on the televised final tables like Hansen, Hellmuth, or Ivy (idle thought; do they publish hand histories of major tournaments? That would be like poker box scores!).

Anyway, sometimes (especially in a sit-n-go where you are seeing the same people the entire game), people like to pull a stunt like that early when it doesn't cost them too many chips, figuring that the loose calls it gets them later (coupled with that he fact that he could flop big here and take a good pot right now - no hand is *that* big a favorite over another preflop) makes it +EV for the tournament.

Now, I'm not necessarily endorsing this as a winning strategy - actually I've been experimenting with it at a few lower limit sit-n-goes.

Hmm, why do I think I just talked myself into alot more preflop calls. oh well... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[whiskeytown]

true....he gets real daring and tries an all in push somewhere, I have to dump it....no doubt about that. - glad he didn't. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

RB