Was this right? Quick pre-flop question

[TheRake]

Party Poker 1/2 (9 handed)
TheRake has K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif and is MP2

EP1 limps, MP1 limps, TheRake raises, CO 3-bets, Button caps, BB folds, UTG folds, EP1 folds, MP1 folds, TheRake folds, CO calls

Flop(14 SB): 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif

CO bets, Button calls

Turn(8 BB): K/images/graemlins/heart.gif

CO bets, Button calls

River(10 BB): Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif

CO bets, Button calls

CO shows QQ and Button shows JJ

TheRake

[TheRake]

BTW...I should have added.

This table was not particularly aggressive pre-flop and I didn't really notice anything out of the ordinary about the CO or button except maybe they played a little too loose.

theRake

[fluff]

Yes, I think I would muck AKo PF if it is capped back to me when you describe the raisers as tight.

Edit: Well, you didn't say tight, but instead a bit too loose. Still against non-maniacs I would probably fold against a 3-bettor and a capper. Too easy to be dominated here.

[Lost Wages]

You might fold it for 4 bets cold, but not for 2 bets back. You were getting ~6.5:1 with no fear of a reraise.

Lost Wages

[TheRake]

LW,
Guess the only hand I am a huge underdog to is AA. Ran some numbers at Twodimes

AKo vs AA I am approx. 13.5:1 dog
AKo vs KK I am approx 2.5:1 dog
AKo vs QQ or JJ I am approx 1.25:1 dog

interestingly enough is the guy that capped was the biggest underdog of the 3 hands.

cards__win__%win__lose__%lose__tie__%tie__EV
Ac Ks_492954_35.96_873052_63.69_4748_0.35_0.361
Qs Qd_623527_45.49_742479_54.17_4748_0.35_0.456
Jc Jh_249525_18.20_1116481_81.45_4748_0.35_0.183

I just felt at best I was up against KK or QQ and at worst AA. Plus the fact that how do you know what to hope for on the flop? If the hand was suited I make the call. As it was I can live with my decision.

TheRake

[StellarWind]

Folding was probably right. The odds math I've heard so far totally misses the point.

1. You're not against one player, it's two. What if one player has AK and the other has a big underpair? You have four outs on the flop to a tie.

2. How many A's and K's are tied up in the hands of the many limpers and raisers? You may not have many live cards left.

3. The 6.5-1 pot odds are bogus because of the large negative implied odds. You seek to build top pair out of position. When you flop A or K the underpairs fold and there is no implied payoff. When you flop nothing you get to pay and pay to draw to your overcards. If someone has rockets or hits a set you get to pay to draw dead. And heaven help you if they start a raising war with each other.

[Lost Wages]

When you flop nothing you get to pay and pay to draw to your overcards.

No, you don't draw to overcards in a pot that is capped preflop. You either make top pair or better, a flush draw or a gutshot straight draw (which you will have odds to chase) or you fold.

Lost Wages

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
When you flop nothing you get to pay and pay to draw to your overcards.

No, you don't draw to overcards in a pot that is capped preflop. You either make top pair or better, a flush draw or a gutshot straight draw (which you will have odds to chase) or you fold.



[/ QUOTE ]

You are absolutely right but that's my point. TheRake is not merely a 1.25-1 dog against an underpair, it's much worse because he cannot draw his hands out. He gets to auto-muck 2/3 of his hands as soon as he sees the flop. Really it's even worse than that because of the likely AK shortage in the undealt cards.

When he does hit top pair he'll often lose (sets/rockets) or tie (AK) anyway. And the lost pots will be a lot bigger on average than the ones he wins because they will fold the underpairs and raise when he's beat.

That's why he should ignore the pot odds and fold.

[bernie]

if i was new to the table, id call. i have to have some line on the players to fold this. ive seen this happen when no one holds a pair above a Q.

once you get the gist of the players at the table more, then id consider laying it down.

b

[Nottom]

Nope, you were wrong. Theres a pretty big difference between folding here with no money in the pot and folding after raising. If you had open raised something like AJo or maybe even AQ, the fold migh be good, but with AK just throw in the other 2 bets getting 7-1 and cross your fingers.