Hand #1 against Bob T

[rharless]

I had the distinct pleasure of running into our own Bob T online last night. Nice playing with you, Bob!

All of our opponents in this hand are the very definition of Loose Passive.

Party Poker 5/10 (10 handed)
rharless has 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif and is SB

UTG, MP2, MP3, CO, and Button all limps. I complete, and Bob T raises out of the BB. We all call.

Flop(14 SB): 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif

We all (including Bob) check to MP2 who bets. MP3 calls, CO raises, and Button cold calls.

Call or 3-bet?

[Joe Tall]

I think you found out why you should bet the flop and frankly I'm not sure why you did not.

I c/r 3-bet in this situation. Build the pot up for your monster-draw.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[rharless]

I think you found out why you should bet the flop and frankly I'm not sure why you did not.

I figured with Bob to my left, it was the perfect c/r-build-a-pot situation. Also I figured he would raise when I bet and although obviously they are loose passive, I did not fancy facing the field with two bets cold.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I figured with Bob to my left, it was the perfect c/r-build-a-pot situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then follow through and come over the top for 3.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Luke]

I think your plan to CR the flop instead betting into Bob T. makes sense and I think I would have likely done the same.

After the CO raise, I'd 3 bet here for 2 reasons:
1. Your raising for value with all those opponents
2. Try to knock Bob T or UTG off a bigger ace than yours to free up those outs.

Actually, this 3-bet seems easy to me.

Luke

[SA125]

If you 3 bet the flop, do you come out firing from the SB at a blank on the turn? Tough to get a free card from the SB when a blank falls and showing weakness is never a good thing. Would your coming out firing knock others out? Probably not the other raiser. It's always nice to have the nut flush draw to fall back on though.

[Luke]

Tough to get a free card from the SB when a blank falls and showing weakness is never a good thing.

You're not raising in the hopes of getting a free card. You're betting your nut flush draw for value with multiple opponents.

If a blank hits on the turn, I may bet out or check/call, depending on how many opponents I have left once the flop smoke clears and what exactly that turn card is.

Luke

[Bob T.]

A 3 bet would have knocked me out. As it was, for two bets, I thought that I could continue.

[Brian]

I'm guessing Bob.T had AK and by not 3-betting you allowed an Ace to hit on the Turn and for Bob T. to take the pot.

-Brian

[Bob T.]

I had AK off, without a spade. I had 3 clean outs, and then another 7 that may or may not be good. With two cards in the playing zone, plus the 8, which was definately in the playing zone at this table, (where UTG coldcalled with 43 off) and a preflop raise usually generated 3 coldcallers, I figured I was definately behind in a 7 handed pot. I didn't even have the best draw. Because it was loose passive, flops sometimes got checked through, and I checked the flop hoping to see the turn for cheap. When it came back to me for two bets, (and we virtually never saw a threebet flop) I thought that my 3 clean outs, and 7 tainted ones were enough to continue in a big pot where I would be getting about 12-1 on my call.

[Bob T.]

Good guess, but we aren't to the turn yet.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
Tough to get a free card from the SB when a blank falls and showing weakness is never a good thing.

You're not raising in the hopes of getting a free card. You're betting your nut flush draw for value with multiple opponents.

If a blank hits on the turn, I may bet out or check/call, depending on how many opponents I have left once the flop smoke clears and what exactly that turn card is.

Luke

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. There I was only pointing out the obvious difference between positions when raising flush draws. My real question was about the turn. I agree with the reason for the raise how you'd play the turn.

[rharless]

1. Your raising for value with all those opponents
2. Try to knock Bob T or UTG off a bigger ace than yours to free up those outs.

Actually, this 3-bet seems easy to me.

Yes, I agree 100%, and I really screwed this one up in real-time. As soon as I cold-called, I thought "well now why did I do that?" Since my plan was to check-raise Bob, not to check-3bet an LP bettor, and since I don't think as fast as I would like, I was momentarily confused by the new shooter. And, I did not know if Bob had also planned to check-raise (doubtful, as depending on a later bet with our passive table was dubious), or if he had simply whiffed the flop.

Then, when Bob cold-called behind me, the full error of my flop cold-call hit me in the face. Here I am with the positional advantage for the context of this betting round and do I use it? nooooo

Now:

Turn(14 BB): K/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Now I have one of those so-called good problems. How to get the most money into the pot?

[Luke]

Yes, I agree 100%, and I really screwed this one up in real-time. As soon as I cold-called, I thought "well now why did I do that?"

We all make real-time mistakes that are easy to diagnose after the fact in the comfort of the forums. Don't sweat it.

Now I have one of those so-called good problems. How to get the most money into the pot?

I know it might give your hand away, but I'd bet out, hope to trap a couple callers in the middle and maybe, just maybe the CO or someone else who hit a smaller flush, straight or top pair king will raise allowing you to 3-bet.

Luke

[ElSapo]

If you can put Bob on AK, which seems logical given the action, I think you can try for that check-raise again since if he did hit that king he'll probably bet here.

[Bob T.]

I think that this could have been an easy decision for you. The key question is, what kinds of hands would I raise preflop with, check the flop, and then coldcall? I think by far the most likely hands are some variation of KQ, AQ, and AK. Anyway, with any of those hands, I am extremely likely to bet out on the turn, if it is checked to me.

[rharless]

Yes, this is what I did. I put Bob on AK/AQ after he coldcalled the flop so when the Ks fell on the turn, I thought fast (for once) and I checked. This time Bob did what he was "supposed" to do the first time /images/graemlins/wink.gif, and he bet. Of the other five, two folded and three called. I raised, Bob folded, the other three called.

Then they all called my river bet too when the Qh appeared. The opponents had AQo (straight), KQo (two pair with Q of spades), and 9s4s (medium flush).

The Ks was the absolute best card for me in that deck, as it singlehandedly improved FIVE of our hands.

Afterwards, I wondered if I should have bet and then hoped to 3-bet. I would think at least one would have found his hand fit enough to raise if I had bet. But then again, how would I know that the Ks improved everyone's hand?