2 ladies on the table, shared by everyone...

[Joe Tall]

10/20 Foxwoods - loose passive preflop, sometime over-aggressive postflop.

MP1 is a new player to the table but has yet to play many hands.
MP2 is a friend of the BB and is a weak-call station.
BB is a nut-job, jokester, that bluffs a lot and loves to bet into Pre-flop raisers on the flop.

I open raise UTG+2 w/J /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

MP1 cold calls, MP2 calls and the BB calls.

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB bets out, I raise, MP1 3-bets. Now MP2 looks over at the BB and cold calls 3, the BB looks back and folds, I call. 3 to the turn.

Turn: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif



I know what I did. What would do? Questions, comments appreciated.

God Love Coach Belichick,
Joe Tall

[spamuell]

How about checking and folding if it's 2 bets or more back to you, but calling if it's just one?

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
How about checking and folding if it's 2 bets or more back to you, but calling if it's just one?

[/ QUOTE ]

What if it's only one bet but 2-callers. I do not think checking is the correct play. I bet out looking for information.

I was worried about MP2 and his look to the BB that got the BB to fold.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[spamuell]

What if it's only one bet but 2-callers.

I thought it was only you, MP1 and MP2 in the hand?

MP2's look towards the BB is what worried me as well, when someone calls 3 cold on a board like that, I either think "monster" or "flush draw". His look to the BB seems to suggest the former.

Betting and folding to a raise is probably a good play, I don't really see him raising a hand here that you can beat, so you find out where you are for one bet rather than check-calling down for 2 bets.

I suppose I worry a little when I see a friend look at another friend that this isn't some sort of play they set up beforehand to make it look like one of them is holding a monster. But this is a stupid worry, and it would be idiotic to try that in a situation where so many people want the pot, so if he raises you then you can assume you're beat.

[SA125]

I don't know how many hands MP1 has seen and folded but, if it's been around a few times, there's your problem. He's finally playing, and calling your 2 bets cold to boot, and then coming over the top of your flop raise? That's not good. I'd put him on a Q or having filled his flopped set of 3's or 6's. I know that's not rocket science but is JJ worth paying off with? As far as odds for betting or calling go, the question is what are the odds of MP1 bluffing? At 10-20, MP1 might be getting his feet wet with that level of action, but I doubt he's new to the game.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought it was only you, MP1 and MP2 in the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right. Still if you check, where do you stand if MP1 bets and MP2 calls? That's where I was getting at.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really see him raising a hand here that you can beat, so you find out where you are for one bet rather than check-calling down for 2 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now your thinking. This is my exact thought.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[bernie]

you can check and fold, or bet and fold.
id likely check and fold. unless you've seen this guy play a draw this way. then i might check call 1 bet but i wouldnt like it.

b

[trillig]

free bump, this belongs in Middle/High Stakes by the way.

I think I'd fold on this flop.

-t

[LetsRock]

I don't know the 10/20 game, but I can't imagine that it matters.

To me, this screams "I'm beat right now, I have exactly 2 outs, stop fishing".

You did the prerequisite "raise. I can beat queens" move on the flop. "I'm pretty tight" MP1 3 bets. Without knowing that he will value raise his A flush draw, I have to put him on a set or a big Q (AQ, KQ) on the flop. If I'm going to choose not to believe him, I'm capping the flop ("no, really, I can beat your Q"). The calling station, is well, who knows what he's up to, but it's likely he'll be there for the durationand if he has any draw he's just a mystery variable that I can't read. Don't like those types in this spot.

The second Q on the board just doesn't help you one bit. If your opponents are on a draw, then they don't like it either, but it's pretty good chances that at leat one of them has at least trips. Now you absolutely need one of 2 Js to take this pot (unless of course MP1 just hit the case Q!).

Had I capped the flop, I'd bet out to test the waters since I'm still representing a Q. But with the 3-bet call, I've pretty much told the table "I was kidding,I don't really like the Q", so now, out of position with an underpair vs a late position aggressor and a third party mystery, I have to get away from this hand. Check/fold unless MP2 folds, then I'll call it down unhappily hoping that the J/images/graemlins/club.gif hits the river.

I guess this is one problem I have with open raising with this hand - the board can get scary real quick and I have no position to help the read. Need to be able to get away from this hand.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
id likely check and fold. unless you've seen this guy play a draw this way. then i might check call 1 bet but i wouldnt like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what made it somewhat difficult. I didn't see him showdown a hand yet. He fold for pretty much 3-straight orbits and maybe open-raise once and bet a flop that didn't go to a showdown. Therefore, he seemed solid, until he cold-called my open-raise.

MP2 was a call-station, but his look to his friend was one-of 2 things:
1. "WTF are you doing betting into him? Bluffing again?"
2. "Dummie, fold, I have a better hand than you?"

Therefore, EDIT: I bet the turn looking for the answer from both MP players.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Had I capped the flop, I'd bet out to test the waters since I'm still representing a Q.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think calling the flop and betting out on the turn is the best play, if you 'are' behind. You'll lose more by capping the flop and betting the turn/river; rather than calling the flop and folding to a raise on the turn when you bet out.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
free bump, this belongs in Middle/High Stakes by the way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think they'd be entertained by it. When I indeed have a question about a decision, I post these there.

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd fold on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're giving up way too much folding this flop to a tricky-bluffy-fish.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

Check-fold the turn is the overwhelming response. Can some of those posters care to add some thoughts?

Peace,
Joe Tall

[jonahmavesin]

Sure.

By the way, P-A-T-S, PATS PATS PATS!!! Brady-Vinatieri in '04!!!

The thing is, you have TWO guys, MP1 and MP2, who both cold-called PF, and now have 3-bet/cold-called 3 bets respectively on the flop. These guys clearly have quality hands and are not afraid of a queen. They either have made hands that beat yours (namely, top pair Q on flop followed by trips, or maybe a slowplayed AA or KK, or worse, a set), or they are on the club draw. But I don't like putting both guys on that draw, seems unlikely, ESPECIALLY since one of them is out there raising. Since it's his first real action at the table, I don't think putting him on some kind of creative ram-jam draw play is wise. I think you have to fear him for now. MP2 makes this calculation easier.

As for betting out for a last bit of information, sure, it's probably a pretty close call between check-fold and bet-fold to a raise. But if MP1 is ramming-jamming a draw, why wouldn't he continue to do this? And MP2 would certainly have odds to call if HE was on a draw as well.

I just don't like it. Check fold.

[jonahmavesin]

Hmmm. One interesting thing I've been thinking about is, the second Q really makes no difference here. What if it was a blank?

As of the flop, if the Q is out there, you're losing. The second Q really makes no difference whatsoever. Either way, you need a J to win if the Q is out there.

So, do you check-fold an underpair to a probably top pair on the turn? If so, you do so here. If not, you don't. No real distinction.

Another thing to think about, on the other hand: that Q, though irrelevant, is just a scare card: it's terrifying to anyone without a Q. So in that sense a bet out on the turn actually has more likelihood of getting a fold than otherwise, because overcards will now drop. That increased likelihood may make it worthwhile to bet out, as you suggest.

Thoughts?? Interesting hand.

Oh, and Ty Law as Secretary of Defense.

[SA125]

Check my earlier post. Your J's may have been the best but they say poker is a game of percentages. In the long run, they say one of the surest ways to lose money is chasing big pairs with small ones. I agree. Folding pocket pairs to board overcards at the right time is probably biggest difference between long term winning and losing.

[Bob T.]

There are about 8 or 9 big bets in the pot. I will be getting about 12 to 2, to call a turn bet, and a river bet, and I don't think I am ahead 1/7th of the time. I can imagine scenarios, where I would be ahead, but it is before noon, here, and I always post weak tight in the morning /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[Joe Tall]

I bet the turn, MP1 and MP2 called.

River: 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif [Q /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif]

I bet, MP1 folded and MP2 called and flipped over A /images/graemlins/spade.gifT/images/graemlins/spade.gif and my Jacks were good.

MP1 later said he had A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif. Everyone looked at me as if I was high for betting the turn and even one player made a comment. However, I can't see any other way to play it.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[XlgJoe]

I don’t get to play live poker much (5+ hour drive) and not at the 10-20 level but I would want to get to the showdown as cheap as possible.

First I would want to make sure it got to showdown because I want to see the cards. When people are giving glances/signals to each other I would want to know what it means and possibly move tables.

Second you have mentioned in the past that the tables are usually soft. Your description of this table was that of loose-passive preflop and over aggressive post flop. They could be playing many hands you can beat.

My question is do you think it is collusion or just buddies who know each others play well? Like I said I don’t get a lot of live play experience, so I don’t know how to interpret those actions.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
My question is do you think it is collusion or just buddies who know each others play well? Like I said I don’t get a lot of live play experience, so I don’t know how to interpret those actions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen both, collusion and just any old look. The funny thing here is that BB was a total goof-ball-loose-cannon and his buddy was laughing at his crazy play all night. So the look could have meant a few different things, like I stated earlier.

As soon as the BB called my pre-flop raise, I thought, "Ok, when he bets into me here, I'm raising no matter what the board is." As the BB had done this frequently.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[aas]

[ QUOTE ]
In the long run, they say one of the surest ways to lose money is chasing big pairs with small ones

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting here is not "chasing". It is intended to clarify your situation. If I'm raised, I'll fold. If I'm called I'll bet again on the next street.

aas.

[SA125]

Nice hand. Not the first time I would have folded a winner. It answered a bigger question for me. I wondered how loose the players were in limits above the $4-8 / $5-10 I play in. What was MP2 doing there? Getting me to fold is the answer I would guess. That's true there but, I just can't see getting the best of it in the long run playing AT in a hand like that. Especially against 2 players in 10/20.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting here is not "chasing". It is intended to clarify your situation. If I'm raised, I'll fold. If I'm called I'll bet again on the next street.

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as no flush or Overcard hits, you bet the river for value if called on the turn.

The rest of your reply is right on.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[bunky9590]

I voted bet and fold to a raise. Since you were never raised, and you did bet and won, I win the gold star right???

Nice Play JT. Well done.

BTW, Is Brady ever going to lose a playoff game? EVER?

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I voted bet and fold to a raise

[/ QUOTE ]

I just can't imagine who would check-fold. Bet is the ONLY way I thought. Had it been 1 more opponent, check-fold looks better and better.

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, Is Brady ever going to lose a playoff game? EVER?

[/ QUOTE ]

Common now, what kind of question is this? If they are in the playoffs w/Brady at the helm, mint the rings! /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Peace,
Joe Tall

[SA125]

Can't argue with results, but I'll say this. The only way I honestly see how betting clarify's anything, is if you get called. Someone coming over the top of you may just be a test of your will, just like this turn is.

Going into this turn your biggest decision is whether you're the best hand and how much you're willing to pay to see otherwise. I can see ch/c, but b/f? If I bet the turn, I call the raise. If I want to be sure I'm not being played, I check and pay off.

[mosch]

Though some people consider 10/20 mid-stakes, the game that I witnessed at Foxwoods was not playing, at all, like a mid-high stakes game. I really felt like I was playing in a wild 4/8 game, except the chips were the wrong color.

And Joe, I go for bet/fold on this one. I'd only call a raise under very, very specific circumstances...

[sfer]

I followed until your last lines. Are you advocating not raising JJ out of position?

[SA125]

Why b/f? Why add $20 to a pot and then give up on it? Seems like a dead money give-away. If you're willing to spend $20, why not ch/c? To save $20 on river? I would've ch/f to the show of strength anyway, but I can't see putting $20 in and then mucking.

Once you're past the flop and see a turn like that, isn't the turn and the river almost the same if they're just calls? When you put in a bet on the turn, a crying call on the river is almost a given. Don't you think?

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
The only way I honestly see how betting clarify's anything, is if you get called. Someone coming over the top of you may just be a test of your will, just like this turn is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or they have trip-Qs and I should fold. Especially with an extra opponent to the turn.

I failed to state this but I did have a stong image at the table. To the point that when the BB and MP2 sat down the BB asked a player next to him, "Who's the heavy hitta?" and the player next to him pointed to me.

Onto some hand analysis: I am Preflop-raiser and the flop raiser. We have a flop 3-better of the Preflop-raiser/flop-raiser and a call-station calling behind.

As far as MP1 knows I could have an over-pair. As far as I know he could have the Q, a set or flush draw. I cannot cap the flop as it would not give me any information about MP1 or MP2 and I may be wasting a bet as I am behind.

Then the Top-pair pairs the turn. The only way I'll know where I stand is to bet out and fold to a raise. Saving me a bet on the river if I check-call/check-call.

Once both players call, it's easy, no club, no over-card and I'm good.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[me454555]

Checking and folding on the turn is almsot definatly wrong. If you believe someone has a queen you should fold on the flop and save those 2 sbs. Since your seeing the turn, that other queen falling is probobly the best card you can see, aside form a jack. It decreases the chance that someone else has a queen in their hand and it would probobly cause anyone w/a fluhs draw to go into check call mode. It makes it very easy to identify if someone has a queen b/c they will come over the top of you if you bet out. So bet out and fold to a raise is the the right way to go on the turn

[bernie]

i like the bet/fold better than the check/fold. but it can depend on your opponents also. some you will easily read for the trips. if not sure, then bet out. that card is just as scary to them as it is to you. unless they have it. although with many of these players, 'worse hands will call'.

given that they both just called, you can bet the river. i may have check called the river but that could induce 2 bets coming back.

i like your play.

b

[Bob T.]

A funny thing happened this afternoon, on pokerstars.

I got JJ, in MP open raised, the button, and the blinds called. The flop came Q92 twotone, checked to me, I bet, the button raised, one of the blinds called, I called.

Turn another Q, blind checked, I bet, both called.

River, J completing the flush, I bet, the button raised, Blind folded, and I decided that I was going to lose the maximum if I was facing Queens full, and threebet, and the button called with AT of clubs.

Anyway, I strongly suspected the button raise on the flop might have been for a free card, just because this hand was still in my mind. When the second Queen appeared on the turn, I decided to test that theory, and then I caught the dream card on the river.

Thanks Joe Tall.

[Joe Tall]

It's nice hitting the perfect card with a 38 outer.

Very nice hand,
Joe Tall