Would it be wrong to break my computer after this?

[buddha]

PP nl 100 table, had built to $250 once and had AA cracked by Q5 off to cut stack in half. Amaizingly didn't tilt. Patiently built back to $250 again only to have the following happen...

I'm in the SB dealt JJ, EP player with $200 raises to $5. two call b4 I raise to $10 to check my footing, willing to call a reasonable raise but not allin. all three remaining just call. At this point i am confident I have best hand as I feel AA KK would reraise and prob QQ. I put my opponents on AK suited A or weak pairs.

Flop 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif
I lead $20 EP and one other call.

Turn 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
I lead $40 EP calls late position RR to $80, I call EP call.

River 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif
EP allin LP fold I call.
EP turns over 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif for gut shot straight. Takes down $500 pot.

My thoughts on flop were I'm ahead figuring a made str8 or set might RR. Hard to think some might call with cards that make the str8 on this board preflop. Turn... at this point I am potstuck, I am no longer confident but don't feel I can fold. on river willing to pay a made set or str8. But when this guy turns over 8 9 having hit gutshot on river i almost lost it. I find myself making a list of hands that in my head I will feel comfortable paying off. on this hand AA KK QQ 33 or any made set but calling $100 of bets on gutshot draw not one of em. Either blast my play or encourage me not to quit. Feedback appreciated.

[Paul2432]

I think on the turn you should either raise all-in or fold. Here is why: if you are behind you do not have odds to draw so you should fold. If you are ahead, you want to charge the draws the maximum (or get them to fold). If you thought you could check it down on the river then calling would be OK, but I do not see that happening here. I wuold be inclinded to fold. Against two opponents, JJ is not going to be good most of the time.

On the river, I would also be inclined to fold. What hand did you think he had?

Paul

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the SB dealt JJ, EP player with $200 raises to $5. two call b4 I raise to $10 to check my footing

[/ QUOTE ]

Make a real raise or just call here. The stacks aren't big enough for you to call a re-raise here. I don't see any point to your min-raise from the SB here.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif
I lead $20 EP and one other call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You lead $20 into a $40 pot with JJ when you think your opponents have overcards or pairs. All you're doing here is pricing everyone in to bust you. With a hand as vulnerable as JJ w/ three opponents who called two (albeit small) pre-flop raises pre-flop, I'd probably overbet the flop a little, probably $60 or so.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
I lead $40 EP calls late position RR to $80, I call EP call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you bet $40 into a $100 pot. Why? Once again, I'd bet the pot here. Having bet small, when LP min-raises to $80, I'd either fold or go all-in, more often all-in.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn... at this point I am potstuck

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you say that?

[ QUOTE ]
But when this guy turns over 8 9 having hit gutshot on river i almost lost it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm your opponent here, here's what I might think throughout the hand (though I would likely do a few things differently):

Pre-flop: OK, I think I'll play this hand, so I'll make my standard open w/ 89s. SB min-raises? OK, he probably has a big Ace or a suited connector or a little pair or something. $40. Nice pot.

Flop: PFR bets $20 into the $40 pot. Hmmm.. He has nothing. Probably AK. OK, I'll take one off for $20 since I can make some money if I hit my 7. I'm glad he bet so small. I call. Other guy calls. OK. $100. Nice pot.

Turn: PFR bets $40 into $100 pot. Yup, AK. Well, I'm going to call the $40 since I think not only 7s, but also 8s and 9s are probably good. 3.5:1 is plenty w/ 10 outs since he'll bet again. I'll call and hope the guy behind me folds. Damn, guy behind raised. I'll have to fold if first guy reraises. What, he just calls? Well, $300 in the pot now. It's $40 to me and I'll make another $100 or $200 on the river if I hit my 7. OK, I call.

River: Awesome. I'm so glad the guy w/ JJ let me get to the river.

[buddha]

Man Ulysses thanks for the fantantic response. Your commentary from my opponents perspective really makes me think about my play in ways I didn't imagine before. I guess I very likely would have made money on this hand if I played flop more aggressive and turn for that matter. Dont think I would have been called in either spot. In any event I guess it got to bet big or fold and I did neither. Your response has created many more questions but I will search threads to see if they already have been answered before I post again. Thank you, thank you.

[Ulysses]

You're welcome. Glad you took the response w/ a good attitude.

In general, you played this hand more like a limit hand than a no-limit hand. Very common occurrence and plenty has been written about that here.

Note what happened here. You were willing to call all your money away when the board was 4567, but you weren't willing to put all your money in as the aggressor earlier.

Thinking through your mistakes in this hand will definitely improve your NL game.

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]

Note what happened here. You were willing to call all your money away when the board was 4567, but you weren't willing to put all your money in as the aggressor earlier.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is amazingly succinct and accurate. Listen to Ulysses. He plays good.

I'd also like to echo Ulysses' questioning of buddha's "I feel potstuck" remark. The small bets you made on flop and turn are what allowed your opponents to outdraw you, of course, but there was a (small) upside: since the bets were small you were not potstuck. When faced with the raise on the turn, you had only put $70 into the pot. You're playing for stacks of $200 here. You can fold if you feel you're behind. If you believe havea decent chance of being ahead, push it in!

If you go all-in on the turn, I will concede that now you're potstuck. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Guy.

[EVIL]

EP's call of your preflop raise is fine in my book since it is such a small percentage of his stack and at least one other stack involved (yours). Even just considering the pot odds he was getting I think it's not a bad call. Also, he has little reason to expect a reraise behind him.

His call of your $20 bet on the flop was not bad at all IMO because he could rationally believe he was getting sufficient implied odds. A 7 on the turn will give him the nuts. There is $60 in the pot, including your bet. He is an 11-1 dog to hit his nut straight on the turn. If there is no raise behind him, then his call is +EV if he can expect to collect somewhat over $220 in total (the amount already in the pot plus future action). (Actually he should be setting the bar somewhat higher than $220 because he needs to be compensated for the risk of a raise behind him on the flop, and the risk of a rivered full house beating his straight.) At worst, if it is heads up between you and him and he hits, he still only needs to expect to collect over $160 from you in order to justify his call, which is feasible since you both have $160 or more remaining in your stacks. The best situation for him is if the 2 other players were to call behind him, assuming neither are drawing to the same straight. Then he only needs to expect to exceed a total of $120 from 3 players if he hits on the turn.

That being said, I think he had no business calling your $40 bet on the turn, since to justify this call, he would have to expect to win an additional $320 or so beyond what is in the pot if he hits on the river, which would be impossible since he would only have $130 left in his stack and 1 or 2 opponents. There is also the risk of a raise behind him. So his call on the turn was pretty bad.

[ackid026]

i just read your post, not any replys so sorry if i state the obvious, but after 2 call on the flop u are in check and fold mode, this is no limit and this spot is horrible for your hand to put that much money in the pot, give up the 30 invested and wait for a better spot

[crockpot]

this preflop reraise makes no sense. you either want to win the pot now or just call, not build a pot with jacks out of position. you also want to bet more on the flop for the same reason.

on the river, i like a fold if EP is a typical player. doesn't it seem at all odd that he would call all the way and then suddenly bet all in against two players who each called $80 on the turn? if this is a bluff, the guy sure has balls. the only hands you can beat are 7x, TT and 99, and he is unlikely to suddenly move all-in on the river with any of them.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I think you should have reraised more preflop. Your reraise didn't really encourage anyone to fold, it just made the pot bigger.

In addition, I would have seriously overbet the pot on the flop, perhaps double. Your bet didn't really encourage anyone with a piece of the flop to fold, as the pot was too big. With that many opponents, and the probable best, but very vulnerable hand, you simply want what's in the pot now.

These kind of idiots are rampant on party. Just think, they are free to breed all they want. I have smashed my mouse quite a few times, but learned my lesson when I had to replace it cuz I broke it... D'oh! Now I have one of those stress stars from pokerstars. Often times tho I think I might install a punching bag near the computer.

al

[Cornbread Maxwell]

Ulysses,

I think you are giving his opponent a little too much credit in his analysis of the situation (pot odds, implied odds, etc.). In that situation, most online players have the mentality of:

"CMONNNNNN GIMME A 7 DEALLER LETS GAMBLE LOL!!!!!!!!1"

And secondly, I don't buy into the fact that you're getting that good of implied odds on the flop call. Normally if that 7 comes on the turn, it will kill your action and a good player will lay down JJ to 4 to a straight on the board and heavy action.

[Ulysses]

I agree re: your analysis of his opponent being the more likely case. For the most part I was just making some exaggerated points for the original poster's benefit.

As for the implied odds, I'm not so sure I agree there. On Party it's surprising how often you get paid off by overpairs on incredibly scary boards. And while he'll of course get paid off by an 8 on 4567, he'll usually get paid off by a 3 as well.

But, no, my comments in my initial post were not meant to serve as a guideline for how one should play well in his opponent's spot.