Hand vs. another "solid" player

[bunky9590]

UB 2/4 Tight aggressive table

I have a nasty rep at this table, I'm up $60.00 in an hour and have not shown down a loser and am steamrolling the table when I'm in the pot, however only seeing 20% of flops at this point.

Folded to me on the button and Bunky raises with J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif, solid player in the SB calls, BB folds.

Flop comes K /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
SB bets, whats your play and why?

My results to follow.

[symphonic]

If he's a solid player, i'd fold.

[Stu Pidasso]

Raise and fold to a Reraise.

Stu

[jimchapter]

I think this is an easy fold. If the sb has top pair, you need two perfect cards to win this hand. If the sb has KJ or KT that eliminates a lot of the cards that could help your hand. Besides the pot isn't big enough to chase those cards anyways.

[JTG51]

Fold.

The pot is small and you could easily be drawing to only runner, runner outs. This isn't the place to show how tough you are and start spraying chips.

[Trix]

Raise, cuz then you can fold if he dont.

[sfer]

A solid player will make a move like that with nothing and, more importantly, can lay down a big hand. I'd raise and fold to a reraise. Assuming you don't improve on the turn/river, if he calls your raise and bets the turn you can fold. If he calls and checks to you on the turn put in one more bet and check through the river if he calls/checks.

He didn't 3-bet the flop. I think if he had a K or A high hand he 3-bets preflop to what looks and smells like a steal on your part.

[Mike Gallo]

Fold, wait to go to war when the pot has more money in it.

However to make things interesting, I will play the Devil's advocate and discuss the action of you raising him. If he had a hand why didnt he check raise? Unless of course he knew you would raise if he bet, or he has a vunerable hand. If you think you can blow him off a hand you can raise.

Hmmm...so many things to consider.

I would fold because I do not want to go to war with Jack high.

[Joe Tall]

The pot is small. Fold.

You've got slim chance to improve, release it.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[spamuell]

The pot is too small, so I'd fold.

But if you really wanted to win this pot for some reason, I think a good idea would just be to call the flop and raise the turn. That should scare him.

[BugsBunny]

Either raise or call and then raise the turn. You're heads up so the cards are less important - you have to play the person more than the cards. And, in this case, he could have called with a fairly wide range of holdings if he's in blind defense mode.

Since he's a solid player he probably autobet the flop - especially with the K on board. You can either play back now or wait till the turn - depends on which you think is likely to work better.

I'd probably raise the flop. If he doesn't have much you may take it down right here. If he reraises then you have to decide if he's still trying to play you (possible if he's solid and he reads you the same) or if he really has something. Since this is a HU hand as opposed to a HU game I'd be more inclined to give credit for a legit hand here if he raised you back. Also - how good is he shorthanded?

If you raise, he calls, and he leads into you again on the turn then you should probably lay it down, unless you caught something to keep you in (T, J, Q) - in which case you can play back.

[SA125]

I agree with Joe Tall. You're either behind right now and would be chasing or SB just fired at the pot to see where you're at. You'd have to raise to find out. Question - is it worth it? Answer - small pot with no overcards or draw.

[bunky9590]

I knew he was solid, and he knew I was solid.

Therefore I popped him back to represent Ak and he mucked like a little schoolgirl.

The bet in that instance from a solid player indicated more weakness and a pathetic attempt at a resteal. If he was indeed strong (even as little as third pair) he would checkraise.

We never said what he folded or I raised with but it was definitely a "do you really have a King" bet.

Okay, rip away.

[bunky9590]

Why do I necessarily need cards to win this hand? Runner runner what?

You give these solid players way to much credit sometimes.
I played the man and played what did he think that I thought he had.

2 good players forgetting about the cards we had and playing the man. I smelled weakness and popped him.

If you ever want to beat the tough games, you better learn to get tough.

[bunky9590]

All signs point to folding here, you would think.

Mikey, you're a solid player, wouldn't you auto bet the flop vs. a steal raise with K high on board?

If in fact you missed and the button showed more aggression wouldn't you muck?

I played him out solid style.

JT has sat in my game, he knows I like to crack some skulls when I'm pushing chips around.

[SA125]

I agree with Joe Tall. You're either beat at this point or the SB is just firing at the pot. You'd have to raise to find out. Is it worth it? With a small pot, no overcards and no draw, you gave it a shot and don't want to start throwing good money after bad. The only thing I hate more than folding pocket pairs to board overcards is folding after I raised with nothing.

[Mike Gallo]

Mikey, you're a solid player, wouldn't you auto bet the flop vs. a steal raise with K high on board?

I would have reraised from the sb if I thought you attempted a steal.

Reread the Devil's advocate part of my post.

When readin an internet forum I fold, in the heat of battle I could raise.

Difficult to give a definitive answer here. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Nice play, by the way.

Steal resteal..I concede /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Luke]

I would have folded but I don't think raising is terrible.

The problem I see is if he calls your raise, you create a tough spot for yourself on the turn in a small pot that you really shouldn't be sweating.

If the turn card doesn't improve your hand (as will likely happen) and he bets into you, do call, fold or raise? What if he checks, do you bet? What if he checkraises?

I just don't like the road you start to go down by raising that flop. I'd wait for either a slightly bigger pot or at least some semblence of a hand to try a move like your flop raise.

Luke

[sfer]

I like your logic and the raise. I seems like checkraising from the blinds when defending against a likely steal is the standard move when you catch a piece of the flop. Betting out feels like he's testing your nerve.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
JT has sat in my game, he knows I like to crack some skulls when I'm pushing chips around.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I still think you should fold and if it was me betting out, I would have 3-bet your a$$ from upstairs in the lounge!
/images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Peace,
Joe Tall

[SA125]

In a 2/4 game you followed up a PFR raise by coming over the top of a SB flop bet and won a small pot. For that the SB "mucked like a little schoolgirl"? And "you better be tough to play in the tough games"? What if he had you beat, hit you back and you ended up folding on the turn or the river? Would that mean you folded like a man, or would you be the schoolgirl?
I'm not trying to be disrespectful here but, from what've I've seen in casino's over the years, the vast majority of low limit play is won with the best cards. The WSOP it's not. For every one of those small pots you'll win, that same move against a real solid player, you'd probably lose two. Because a solid player would've mucked junk on the SB or checked into your raise if he didn't hit his flop. The one who fires first or raises in NL usually wins. That's not always the case in low limlit.
"Play the man" 2/4 like Phil Hellmuth says. Remember what else he said about these limits - "who's going to fold for $1.75?"

[BugsBunny]

If he was really good he would have known that you know that a c/r is standard - so he would have bet out figuring you'd raise and then reraised you - what would you have done then? /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'l play it both ways, both when I'm bluffing and when I have a piece. I actually like the c/r more when I'm trying to resteal and the bet out when I have a piece - precisely because the opposite is what's expected.

But you have to mix it up - predictability is death against someone that pays attention.

[bunky9590]

yeah its in the heat of battle and you need to make snap decisions, but my brain works that quick.

First of all,
I don't put stock in anything PH says about limit hold'em. Never read the book and probably never will. As far as tournies, he's the best in the world.

Secondly,
If he had ANY kind of a hand against what he thought was a steal, he would have 3 bet to get the BB out. His call told me suited connected or baby PP and wanted the BB to come along.

Thirdly,
If he 3 bets the flop I muck. There is NO draw possible. Its a rainbow flop, no str8 can get made on the turn so its all about do I have the King or not. He also knows there is no draw possible with that flop so he is either against a made hand or a bluff.

If you look at it from his perspective he is getting 5:1 odds on a flop bet bluff. He knows I can lay down a hand and at that price, he is right to bet, but whe i raise, he can't be sure if I following up the bluff or not, so he really has to muck without a strong hand.

Against a weak player you can't make this kind of move, but against a strong one you can. It also adds to your table image when you run out and put a play on another strong player at the table.

[sfer]

I would fold for another small bet if I was the SB and I had a bluff raised behind me. I think that's the whole point. Bunky had a read that the SB was a rational player. To me, that means the SB knows when to give up on a bluff. The read was good, the play was good given the read. Even at 2/4 you can't treat all opponents the same.

[bunky9590]

True that my brother!

Then I would have been the little school girl folding and running away. I was going to fold to a three bet.

[bunky9590]

Folding, calling and raising the turn, raising the flop.

I think in this instance it is a "pump or dump" though, you can't call here (no way not ever)

Am I just a maniac in training or what?

[JTG51]

The bet in that instance from a solid player indicated more weakness and a pathetic attempt at a resteal.

I think you need to rethink your definition of solid. A solid opponent isn't so predictable.

[Inthacup]

Primer: I've read the entire thread

If moves like this aren't occasionally made, you will get pushed around by opponents ranging from mediocre on up. Personally, I can't answer your question accurately on the forum. I would have to actually be in the situation to tell you what I'd do.

I wouldn't say the raise preflop with J10 is standard, but it's something I do the majority of the time. The flop bet from your opponent doesn't look like a K. If he's solid like you say, he's going to try and maximize his profits(most likely with a turn check-raise or something).

This looks like a classic 'tester-bet' from SB. I can't count the number of times that I've played a hand similar to this and have encountered the same result. I would be a lot more worried if he check-called.



Cup

[bunky9590]

You're right cup.

If he's check calls he's trying to get a cheap showdown with something like 87s or a King waiting to checkraise and I am drawing thin or dead.

This wasn't that bad a play though was it?

As far as JTo on the button if folded to me, if I'm gonna play it I have to raise it. Control and position.

BTW, you know that this is the only time that I have position in the game on this SB. He was more than glad to be on my left I'm sure.

[Inthacup]

This wasn't that bad a play though was it?


No, I think it was the perfect time for it. For the last hour, you had been showing done strong hands and playing them aggressively. If you've been raising sets and TPTK on the flop when people have bet into you, it is going to be very tough for your opponent to put you on a bluff here.

If a few of your bluffs have been snapped or you're up against a calling station, this move is pretty ineffective. Given your image and your opponent, I think it was a nice move.

I also think that those who are saying this is an auto-fold are either weak-tight or aren't thinking hard enough about the opponent/situation.



Cup

[BugsBunny]

Calling is the least attractive option. I rarely do it when I'm trying to steal a pot in a case like this. It'll sometimes work that you can call and then raise the turn - but at that point the opponent has enough in the pot that, unless he has total junk, he'll often call and see the river. So you end up giving him 2 more cards to get a piece.

Now if you had a piece of the flop (preferably the K) then calling and raising the turn would make lots of sense. But even here it's occasionally good to try to steal a pot this way, again just to mix things up and keep from getting predictable. And it does work, just not as often.

[Inthacup]

I think you need to rethink your definition of solid. A solid opponent isn't so predictable.

Keep in mind that this is a 2-4 game. My definition of a solid 2-4 opponent is not the same as a solid 15-30 opponent. I highly doubt this opponent is capable of level 4 thinking.

I'd say 2-4 "solid" is something like- An opponent who has a good concept of odds, plays most of his good hands aggressively and doesn't go crazy with betting and raising draws.

Rarely have I seen a "solid" 2-4 player play solid(LAG) poker in situations like this. Mostly because this type of situation doesn't come up too often and I doubt he's a strong shorthanded player. But that's just me.



Cup

[JTG51]

Yeah, that's fair.

I guess this thread just touched on something that's been annoying me here lately. I see lots of posts where people call someone a 'solid' player then very quickly put them on a very narrow range of hands. In most cases it's either a mistake to call the opponent solid, or a mistake to put them on such a narrow range of hands.

[SA125]

Well done Bunky. I must have mistakenly referenced a draw. Anyway, you must be playing in some good 2/4 games with plenty of critical insight because, the last time I played 2/4 at The Taj, this is what I saw.

A mid-straight draw hit the flop and there was raising everywhere. I had nothing and dropped out. Make a long story short, the river finished with a straight on board. Guy raises the other player, they show down and he says he wins because of his A kicker. The guy was like many of the other players who came and went that day. Very new to the game.

In 2/4 in AC, most of the players are new and call with anything. They catch something and ride to the end. You're likely to have your raised AK perfect flop of K-8-2 be nailed by 82s. Believe me, it's happened to me. I just read a good article on cardplayer.com this month. It's about being 5 steps ahead of others who play one step ahead. Pretty good. Keep up the good work.

[JTG51]

If moves like this aren't occasionally made, you will get pushed around by opponents ranging from mediocre on up.

Even though I said fold, I completely agree with this. I suppose I should have said, "Fold most of the time."

[JTG51]

I think the reason you are getting lots of different answers is because this is the type of hand that should be played differently at different times, but the reasons for the timing can't necessarily be pinned down.

I said fold, and I still say you should fold most of the time, but as 'Cup correctly pointed out you should play back sometimes to avoid being pushed around.

Was this the right time to play back? Eh, who knows. At the risk of sounding results oriented, it looks like this was the right time. It's really hard to answer that kind of question well on a forum like this though.

Does that make any sense to anyone, or do I sound like I'm backtracking from my original answer? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bunky9590]

Doesn't get out of line with chasing. Knows when to raise and has good concept of what raising is for. Plays solid hands and does not see a lot of flops. Plays aggressive (but not LAGish) when in pots, and is capable of laying down a hand that he is reasonably sure is beat.

This cat had flashes of level 3 thinking. He would probably be an average to good 10-20 player but a very good 5-10 player.

[Inthacup]

you must be playing in some good 2/4 games with plenty of critical insight because, the last time I played 2/4 at The Taj, this is what I saw.

I have a few problems with this.

First, the games you described are much better than the game bunky described.

Second, 2-4 online does not equal 2-4 live. 2-4 online is more like 6-12 or 8-16 live. Most .5-1 games online aren't as good as the one you described.



Cup

[bunky9590]

Thanks buddy.
The 2-4 games at taj and Borgata are loose passive to the Nth degree.

I "grew up" playing in the tough 5-10 through 20-40 games at the Taj. So when I'm sitting in any low limit game I'm about 4 steps ahead of where evryone else is at, aside from other solid players who have my experience. (which is very few at those limits.)

Now that I'm married with a kid, I'm rebuilding the bankroll in which I play with so that's why I am sitting lower in B&M (2-4 through 10-20) than I used to on a regular basis.

With online I'm building my bankroll from scratch (a $14.00 freeroll award in August and am now at $1480 or so.)
So I'm building the bankroll online as well.

Before I know it I'll be in the 10-20 online and back in the 20-40 live games in no time, (well, maybe a little time)

There are some great players posting here in SS and know the different levels of thinking required in the tougher games. I think it's just good for the newbies and players who have never been in those types of scenarios to see what they would do in this situation and get a debate going on it.

As far as this hand goes, it was pretty run of the mill, but got me thinking afterward, "how would the rest of the SS crowd handle this situation"

I'm glad it generated the responses it did.

[bunky9590]

JTG, you are 100% correct.

You can't make this play all the time ad expect to walk away with little or no opposition.


Most of the plays you make at the tables are so fast its a subconcious reflex that you have to slow down and explain after the hand is complete.

This was the "Perfect" scenario to put this move on.

Tight solid player who showed no strenght preflop when he should have and through a bet out in hopes of taking it down right there against a very tight aggressive player. (who he didn't think would bluff raise).

I'ts not my default play, but my thinking was this.

"you bet into me? I raised preflop darnit, you are gonna learn to respect my raises with your pathetic attempt at buying this pot the one time in 10 I have position on you," (as I click the raise button)

[JTG51]

"you bet into me? I raised preflop darnit, you are gonna learn to respect my raises with your pathetic attempt at buying this pot the one time in 10 I have position on you," (as I click the raise button)

LOL, I can appreciate that!

[SA125]

Thanks Cup ... I think? Like that name. Last time I played in Dec, I holed out from 190 w/4i for eagle. Believe me, it was way out of character for this 18. First time ever from anywhere not close to the green. Back to poker.

They say a leopard can't change it's spots and I've always played by the same book most others play by. Saw something interesting this Sat in AC though and it's got me re-thinking my position on playing "the road less travelled".

Played $4-8 day and night. Same action with a difference. Day table had a woman who played almost anything and saw many, many flops. Her cards hit and she ruled the table. It was more than a rush though. She was a strong player. There were many 2 bets that she called with hands I wouldn't play, but rarely 3 bets. She played the flop excellent and had a command of the game. She walked away the big winner, including some of my chips on back to back bad beats (I lost with FH and then a set of 9's). The night table had a few guys just like her with a difference. They were lousy flop players and basically collected or paid off down to the river. They see-sawed all night. No where near the player in the day.

I always figured that playing loose cards (ex. Q5s, 97o, 85s, Axo) would eventually catch up to you, especially at higher limits. A guy lost $400 in about 3 hrs that day, mostly to her. Yet she played almost the same cards as him, but didn't pay off no where near as much.

What do you think? Can money be made at $4-8 or $10-20 calling 2 bets cold with hands like I described?

[bunky9590]

Can you make money playing those hands, in a word "no"

You will have some very good runs when the deck smacks you over the head but other tha that you will bleed so bad you would need a tourniquet.

Play solid hands with lots of aggression.

[SA125]

Good answer, even better way to describe it.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
In a 2/4 game you followed up a PFR raise by coming over the top of a SB flop bet and won a small pot. For that the SB "mucked like a little schoolgirl"? And "you better be tough to play in the tough games"? What if he had you beat, hit you back and you ended up folding on the turn or the river? Would that mean you folded like a man, or would you be the schoolgirl?
I'm not trying to be disrespectful here but, from what've I've seen in casino's over the years, the vast majority of low limit play is won with the best cards. The WSOP it's not. For every one of those small pots you'll win, that same move against a real solid player, you'd probably lose two. Because a solid player would've mucked junk on the SB or checked into your raise if he didn't hit his flop. The one who fires first or raises in NL usually wins. That's not always the case in low limlit.
"Play the man" 2/4 like Phil Hellmuth says. Remember what else he said about these limits - "who's going to fold for $1.75?"

[/ QUOTE ]

I think most of that post is right on the money here.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
The bet in that instance from a solid player indicated more weakness and a pathetic attempt at a resteal. If he was indeed strong (even as little as third pair) he would checkraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like you're doing way too much checkraising and not enough betting when you're in his spot. A solid player, especially one paying any attention to the way you play, will bet out w/ lots of good hands. Why do you think checkraising is such a great move when he has a good hand?

If this is indeed a solid player, I'm positive that your flop raise here is a money-losing strategy.

Sure, you can fold to a flop 3-bet.

But what if he calls the flop and bets a turn Deuce? A turn Ten?

What if he calls the flop and checks the turn Deuce? A turn Ten?

If you've missed the flop a few times after raising and then someone bets into you every time and you fold - and you feel like you're getting run over, then you might want to consider making a play to assert your position and your raise. But in this case you've been running over the table w/ good hands and you have nothing in a small pot. Easy fold.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is small. Fold.

You've got slim chance to improve, release it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Its Heads up. If he always folds when bet into, he would be giving up too much.

Stu

[GuyOnTilt]

From playing a lot of 3-handed and HU in the past month, I've learned that situations like this depend a lot of what's happened between you two HU in the past. How does he perceive you, how do you perceive him, how does he perceive you perceive him, etc. It gets complicated, and the player who's able to stay one step ahead of his opponent will come out on top in the long-run. If you two have never been in a confrontation before, and you haven't been stealing blinds and flops liberally before, I'd simply fold.

GoT

[Ulysses]

Those types of considerations are far less a part of the decision when you end up HU or 3-handed post-flop in a full game vs. when you are playing at a table w/ two or three players total. Most opponents are still thinking of most of their actions in the context of a full table.

[GuyOnTilt]

Those types of considerations are far less a part of the decision when you end up HU or 3-handed post-flop in a full game vs. when you are playing at a table w/ two or three players total. Most opponents are still thinking of most of their actions in the context of a full table.

Against most opponents, you're right. But when facing a solid thinking opponent, I think this comes into play a lot.
At least, I consider such things when making decisions against good opponents.

GoT

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
If he always folds when bet into, he would be giving up too much.


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say always fold. And you know as I do that better situations will arrise.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Inthacup]

And you know as I do that better situations will arrise.

I'm not so sure I agree with you here. Can you explain this further?

[bunky9590]

Couple things.

1st of all thanks for the detailed response and smacking me back down to earth. It's appreciated.

I much prefer to lead out into the raiser when I flop a hand, rather than checkraise. Probably 80-% lead and 20% CR.

However this guy in this situation if he had any playable hand should have 3 bet preflop right??

This is not my standard play in this situation but the table was tight aggressive less than 30% seeing flops.
I had also folded on the button after everyone folded a couple times prior to this with complete cheese, so the steal raise wasn't crystal clear (could be, couldn't be)

My notes indicate tight, solid, semibluffs, checkraises
Raises well.

I just put the bet on weakness more than strength because of his propensity to check raise his better hands. I made the read and went with it.

Maybe I'm being a little results oriented, but it seemed like a good time vs. a good player to push this one through.

[bunky9590]

I hadn't been stealing liberaly lately, had a couple hands on the button that were total cheese after folded to me and I let them go. Made the raise look more legit when I did it.

You wanted debate on this forum, we got some now.

Should I keep the debate hands flowing or should I post another "should I fold this on the river" post /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[SA125]

You made a button move, followed up on it when challenged and took it down. Good job. I think it's fair to say that the reason so much response was generated from such a basic move was that you initially made the SB out to be lame for his play. That obviously wasn't your intention. You were more focused on your own play.

The SB lost an additional $3 calling on the blind and mucked $2 more on the flop. He dropped $5 more than he could or should have. That doesn't get you to the turn in the next limit. Or a large pizza. Think about it.

125

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you explain this further?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure.

How about if he had ANY PIECE of the flop or ANY DRAW.

I think that is pretty simple, really.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I much prefer to lead out into the raiser when I flop a hand, rather than checkraise. Probably 80-% lead and 20% CR.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. I was just going on your statement "if this guy was strong, he would checkraise." Perhaps you were referring to what you thought he would do rather than what you thought was the best play.

[ QUOTE ]
However this guy in this situation if he had any playable hand should have 3 bet preflop right??

[/ QUOTE ]

With me, it all depends. Against certain aggressive players who will auto-raise when folded to them in CO or Button, I'll sometimes call w/ a hand that can flop big or call and hope to outplay them post-flop. Online, I'm more likely to raise or fold, since I have less of a read on the player. But against certain opponents I'll just call w/ hands like 78s in this spot and let you bluff bet all the way when I flop a pair.

I don't think this was a terrible or unreasonable play. I just see a lot of players go way overboard w/ this kind of stuff and a lot of players think this kind of play is very important to their results when it reality it doesn't matter that much and if overdone is a very easy way to unnecessarily spew a lot of chips.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
How about if he had ANY PIECE of the flop or ANY DRAW.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously he's drawing to a jack or a Ten.

Stu