66 UTG Limpet

[naphand]

Party $1/$2 6M - all 6 are playing.

This is a table playing about 70% or more of hands. All sorts of rubbish. They will raise TP or better, regardless of the board or their kicker. So, it tends to be passive PF but a mixture of calling stations and reasonably straightforward raises afterwards. It's very profitable.

I am UTG with 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

This is a hand I normally throw away from here PF, unless the table is over-tight. On a table like this I have an 80-90% chance of limping in for no raise, a raise will probably only knock out 1 player at best. So, for a change, and to try and play some more hands against these guys, I limp (intending to attack the flop if it looks reasonable).

naphand limps, MP limps, CO folds, Button raises, all call.

Flop: 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Well, that did not go according to plan, but 5 callers is enough to justify my calling the raise PF. I quite like the flop; just 1 mediocre overcard and a flush draw for someone to chase.

SB checks, BB checks, naphand bets, MP folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

OK I get heads up with the PF aggressor, this is good and there is plenty of money in the pot. I figure his call is overcards, he surely is not playing a 4 or 5, and would raise the T (?). The Q makes me wince a little, as a Q is could be one of his cards. Time to bite the bullet...

naphand bets, Button calls.

River: T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

No worries, I think I am still ahead. I bet and Button calls and shows:

A /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif

and my hand is good.

But I think I misplayed this hand. I'm not worried about the limp PF as I figured I would get away with that most of the time, unfortunately it got raised but with 5 callers I escape with reasonable odds.

If I bet he either folds his overcards, calls with a better hand, or raises me. If I check and he checks behind, I win but, he would not have called a bet. If I check and he bluffs into me I win the extra bet. If I check and he bets with a better hand he would have called with, I lose the same amount. If I check and he was planning to CR, I save a bet.

So, I figure I should have checked the River? Does anyone disagree (despite the fact he called with just the A).

[Schneids]

I'd check more often than not on that river. A check can look like you missed a heart draw.

Yeah, the PF limp is good on this table.

Overall, well played. Being that the board paired the ten on the river, I think a check by you is more likely than normal going to result in a check by the button as well.

[naphand]

Yes indeed, since I posted a few days ago and it was suggested that I should be checking more of these hands on the River, to induce a bluff/save a raise, I have begun to notice more when it applies. It is fun when you get bluffed at on the River holding what you figure to be the best hand, and many players love to slowplay everything/anything, so it saves the odd bet here and there too.

I guess, the aggressive nature of SH play makes you feel like you should just keep betting all the time, but this is prime example of when that is the worse of the two plays It feels counter-intuitive but, actually takes advantage of the other player/s aggression.

[AJo Go All In]

[ QUOTE ]
but this is prime example of when that is the worse of the two plays

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's not. You put him on ace-high. Ace-high will call a river bet but most likely check behind.

In general, you should just keep betting all the time.

[ike]

Bet the river and fold to a raise unless he's they type to bluff here. Lots of hands that you beat will check behind here. Every hand you don't beat will bet, as will some ace highs or small pairs. You can't checkfold so check calling here only makes sure that the bet goes in every time you're behind and only some of the time you're ahead.

[Schneids]

Party SH players have an extremely high-propensity to bluff or bet when checked to (as in, much higher than game theory dictates as acceptable).

Likewise, I DO think a Party 1/2 SH player is more likely to bet when checked to, than call a bet with ace-high here. I think a lot of your bets on this river are going to result in ace-high folding (at Party 1/2 SH).

Furthermore, Nap might save a bet some of the times he is beat. His opponent may get afraid of the paired tens and think Nap is cleverly trying a c/r with trips. Or, a weakly played PP between Nap's and the tens may check behind, but call a bet. In these spots, against a weak opponent, Nap saves a bet.
This is hardly as much of a one-sided river decision as you and AJ make it seem to be.

I contend it is close, but that I prefer check/call. Change it to Party 5/10SH, and I bet (more likely an ace-high is calling, but not betting if checked to). Change it to Party 10/20 SH, and I check/call (much more likely an ace-high will bet when checked to).

[naphand]

The $1/$2 limit Party games rarely see a player who is prepared to bet with just A high (they do exist and they usually get caned), apart from on the Flop if they were PF raisor (and not many of them at that). But a lot of them do like to bluff at you, or assume you are betting a draw hard, and your check means you are beat.

I have watched the $5/$10 games and they are more aggressive, with a lot of players betting their A. But at the lower limit, the play is more passive, and when a player bets they usually have some part of the Flop. They will also CALL an A overcard to the River and then fold unpaired. This is 90% plus of the play.

The player in question was passive, played far too many hands, and did indeed call to the River with an A overcard, particularly here with such a trashy Flop. My read was good, and although this player was loose and passive, he clearly did THINK more than some other players, and my limp from UTG may have convonced him I was on a weak A (as that was what he would do). My bet paid off, but I was actually surprised he called, and as soon as I hit the "bet" button I thought it was wrong, as almost every time they will fold an A unpaired on the River. In fact, you will be raised on the River by a slow-played TP or overpair MORE times than you can expect to see a call with AJo etc.

In this case, I think he actually put me on a hand, and that was why he called. In most cases they call "hoping to catch their A" and raise you on the River. I love getting AJ or AQ and seeing the J/Q as the top card, as someone always calls you with their crap A, if no A comes they fold to the River bet but if an A comes they raise you and you 3-bet their ass with top 2 pair (they will call on the River 2 if this happens on the Turn).

I take on board what you say though, and will obviously have to consider my options at $5/$10.