Too Tight?

[Pocket Crabs]

(Forgive me if I don't know the language - first post)

I play my online tournaments at ParadisePoker.com. Was in one the other day - $30 buyin. One hand continues to perplex me.

Later rounds of the tournament (can't recall the exact binds), my stack is well above average, 3rd at the table. Dealt JJ on the button. Two limpers. I make a fairly large raise, 4x blinds or so, hoping to steal the pot but keep myself uncommitted in case I get popped back.

(One note - I'm loving JJ at this point since I've flopped a set with it twice in this tournament already.)

Both limpers call - the 4x raise was a much more significant dent in their stacks. Flop is J 10 9, rainbow. Limper number one immediately goes all-in. Second limper calls.

I'm trying to figure out what these people have. AA or KK are out, since I can't imagine any of them limping at this stage with that. 10 10 or 99 seem umlikely as well. As difficlut as it is for me to believe that one would jeopardize that much with QK, I have to put at least one of them on a made straight. Consequently I fold.

There is almost no question that I would have called this if I had been second to act, or if the 2nd limper had folded instead of called. What has been bothering my hand is this - it is difficult to get a handle on these Internet players, as you all know...reading is nearly non-existent. Was this too timid a laydown? Should I be making this a call to increase my chances of significant money despite my reservations?

Results of the hand - Limper one has Q8o for the straight. Limper 2 has A10s.

Granted, the laydown was best here, but I'm more concerned as to whether this was the correct play as opposed to one that was merely right on this occasion.

Final question - is there any way to prevent that Q8o limper from calling that reraise (I'm hesitant to move all-in preflop with JJ at this point) or is this just the way online poker goes. Thanks.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

You need to give us blind, stack and bet sizes. Your fold could be good or terrible based on that information.

[Pocket Crabs]

Ok - this hand happened about a week ago, so this is not specific, but I'll give it a shot.

My stack - 10000
Limper 1 - 6000
Limper 2 - 5000

BB - about 600

This is only an approximation

As you can probably tell, winning the hand would have put me at about 21000, which would have been great shape. Losing would have dropped me to $4000, which is survivable, but would have seriously hurt.

I think what bothers me most about folding was laying down top set without the risk of going out if I had called. What do you think?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

OK, if the blinds were 200/400, you'd be getting close to 3-1 on the call and *if* one of them already has a made straight, you're only a 2-1 dog to improve. On the surface, the pot odds are good to call, but with the BB so short-stacked and the loser of this hand either out or crippled, folding is also reasonable as it gets you much closer to the bigger payouts.

Don't beat yourself up so much on this one. I think it was a close decision.

[agenbite]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, if the blinds were 200/400, you'd be getting close to 3-1 on the call and *if* one of them already has a made straight, you're only a 2-1 dog to improve. On the surface, the pot odds are good to call, but with the BB so short-stacked and the loser of this hand either out or crippled, folding is also reasonable as it gets you much closer to the bigger payouts.

Don't beat yourself up so much on this one. I think it was a close decision.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not nitpicking but I'm curious about the 2:1 calculation (to improve a set). I count 7 outs which gives you 2.6:1 odds against improving. In a tournament situation I automatically round those odds up, so say 3:1. I think it is an automatic fold based on the stacks sizes in this instance. I'd be happier calling if I were only risking 1/4 of my stack, max, AND getting better than 3:1 pot odds.

I'd also ponder the possibility of the bettor being a maniac going all-in with an open end str8 draw, or two pair with Queen/Ten. I'd ponder it but more than likely I'd fold unless I had excellent info./read on the player.

I'm learning too so I offer this up for opinions and any criticism.

agenbite

[NotMitch]

7 outs on the turn but 10 on the river.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I count 7 outs which gives you 2.6:1 odds against improving.

7 outs on the turn, 10 outs on the river(adding in the 3 outs that would pair the turn card).

[agenbite]

Thanks! My mistake, I didn't account for those river outs.

[Utah]

I agree with Kurn. Although I would have a real tough time laying down top set against an all in player. There are a zillion hands a short stack would push in with. Even if you are unlucky enough to be up against the dreaded K,Q you still have plenty of outs.

However, you made one terribly troubling remark in your post:

it is difficult to get a handle on these Internet players, as you all know...reading is nearly non-existent.

You are not doing it right if you believe that. At the end of online tourneys I often have such good reads on the players that I can almost see their cards or at last put them on a definate set of hands.

Definately work on this part of your game as you cannot be a good NL tourney player without this skill. also, it is hard work to do right. You cant simply kind of watch the game and surf the net, chat on the phone, etc. When I am playing my best, I am very exhausted after a little one hour tourney because I am concentrating that hard.

Work hard at your game. Good luck.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Although I would have a real tough time laying down top set against an all in player.

I would, too. But when I looked at the chip/payout conditions, it looked like it might make some sense.

[Pocket Crabs]

[ QUOTE ]
it is difficult to get a handle on these Internet players, as you all know...reading is nearly non-existent.

You are not doing it right if you believe that. At the end of online tourneys I often have such good reads on the players that I can almost see their cards or at last put them on a definate set of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you. However, and perhaps I am posting this in the wrong section, I am referring to a larger tourney - not the sit and go's that most people refer to here. In this instance, and most others, players are constantly shifted around to different tables. It doesn't take me long to pick up on what type of player someone is, especially at a one table mini-tournament, which is what I think you guys are referring to as an SNG. However, when you get plopped down at a table, flop a great hand (but not the nuts), and have someone you've never seen before shove their entire digital stack at you, it's tough - especially when you've never seen them, and they've nver seen you.

Other than keeping detailed notes on players that you've seen before, and limiting your play to one or two table tournaments, I can't really imagine a way to guard against psychos - and I think I'll continue to make this type of fold in this situation unless I run up against someone I've seen before.

That being said, I've found online poker to be very lucrative - I think most above average players should be able to maintain a higher hourly rate than at a similar limit table in person. Plus, it's terribly convenient.