WPT Event, Some Thoughts...

[theBruiser500]

Just saw the "Champion of Champions" event. First of all, I have a quesion about it, what happened to Devilfish, Flack, Darden? I liked these three players the most, disappointed they weren't on.

Ron Rose in the show said that he wanted to win to prove himself and once he won, he was going to quit playing. Something about him irks me, I hope the fact that he won means he will stop playing. Also, it's easy to say after seeing his cards, but I think Ron Rose has tells. The way he acts I think gives away the strength of his hand, at lesat in relation to the other players there...

Even though Howard Ledherer lost when he bluffed all in with 6 3, I have to say, what a classy way to go out. Can't help but respect him for making that move.

Helpi... In that Aruba episode when I first saw him I decided I didn't like him beacuse he jumped around and got really excited when he won anything, but he earned some respect from me in this show. He made a nice laydown with with top pair early in the show, and made some nice bluffs too.

What did you guys think of the event?

danny

[Nottom]

So what exactly were the playing for? I never actually heard what the prize was.

[theBruiser500]

I know they get a free entry into the WPT Bellagio tournament, and Vince also said they were playing for "bragging rights," not sure if it's more than that though.

danny

[Aceshigh7]

I was real disappointed Gus Hansen went out so early. It's really fun watching him play. And did anyone notice the arrogance of Ron Rose? "I might quit the game because I will have proved everything there is in poker." The guy is certainly full of himself. Win the WSOP or WPT championship and then maybe you can say that.

[JTrout]

I thought the time clock took away from the event. I enjoyed the program. Glad to see it on NBC.

As long as you're making a made for TV show, as an intro to the SuperBowl, I'd rather it been 9 of the biggest stars. A little more name recognition. Have Annie Duke kicking Amarillo's arse. Chan and Seidel. Hellmuth/Grizzle. Sizzle! For shizzle, dizzle!

[namknils]

As someone who doesn't have cable, I was very glad to see this event on NBC. I hope it got a lot of viewers.

I too thought that the countdown clock took away from it a little, but it didn't annoy me any. I think at the beginning of the show they said the prize was a quarter of a million, but I could be wrong.

[Easy E]

WARNING! SPOILERS!

Instead of just commenting on the play and the telecast, I wrote down at numerous points of the WPT Championship show what I thought the players would do next, facing certain decisions. Let's see how I did, shall we?

- Who is the gravely-voiced man who does the WPT voiceovers? Does anyone know?

- I didn't think that Shana's opening outfit fit the LG portion of LGPG- Pokerbabe? Seemed a bad cut and color fit for her.

- Juha is second in chips to start? Did he earn them or did he get lucky? Does this validate his scorned WPT win from last year? Guess we'll see how he plays....

- Vince van Patten is starting early with the bombastic comments: "the Top Guns of poker" ?!?

I was a bit surprised that Gus went all-in so early against a big stack with KQsuited- not TOO surprised, having seen Gus' aggressiveness in previous telecasts. I guess he felt that he had to make an early move to try to get some chips to work with, against the 3 much bigger stacks?
Is this becoming a new WPT "rule" much like the 10:58 rule? Call it the "Go all-in very early when you don't have to and you are screwed" rule....
I was surprised Juha called with his Ace high hand. Didn't he think it dangerous to risk giving Gus a decent amount of chips? Would Juha have made that call if Howard or Ron were the all-in raiser with Gus' stack? Of course, Ron and Howard aren't making that move so early IMO.

- I thought the "Poker vs. Football" bit with Howard was overly silly (not the Howard part, but the overt tie-in to the Superbowl). The same thing with that stupid "kickoff" clock that NBC had running. Vince called it the "Clock of Doom"- I call it the "Clock of Dumbness"- is it really that good an idea to force the players to move faster?

- VVP again " .... chance to be a legitimate poker god" talking about Juha- is Vince trying to be over the top entirely too much?
- Mike Sexton had a silly "shot clock" comment about the Countdown clock. Did anyone else find the overly loud ticking to be annoying? I hope it wasn't that irritatingly loud at the tournament itself!

I thought Ron's early fold with AQoff facing a big raise was a good fold, for early in the tournament. I wasn't so sure about Howard's fold of 88 however- was the opposing stack too big to risk taking him on with a middle pair?

- As I feared, WAY too many commercials and breaks for this NBC show. I get a little satisfaction for calling it in my WPT review last week...

I bet it was tough for Paul Darden to go out on the "TV bubble" just out of the final table. Did I miss this, or did they never announce what amount of prize money the players got for each place? I'm assuming they weren't just playing for fun....

Jose's reraise with 7's preflop I thought was a little aggressive- and should he have almost automatically called the flop bet by Howard? I was saying "bet the turn, Howard! Bet the turn" and he smartly listened to me, taking the pot away from Jose.

On a later hand with Juha and Howard, I liked Juha's aggressive opening with bottom pair and Ace kicker. I thought Howard would call the turn bet by Juha, just because it was Juha, and I was correct (about the call; what about the reasoning?) I was surprised that Howard didn't take a shot at bluffing on the river after Juha stopped betting- not a good enough chance to take it from Juha?

- I have to give Vince props for one funny comment "(Juha) makes Barry Bonds look like a people person!" - good one, if rude.

- Does anyone know who the blond-haired player was, with glasses, in the promo commercial for the 3/3/04 show that's starting the regular WPT season? I didn't recognize him.

- It was interesting how close the chip totals ended up, when they got down to four-handed play.

- I REALLY didn't like the "walk through Ron's tells" segment that they did- I would think that Ron would REALLY not like it! And what was with his comment about quitting poker if he would win? "what else to accomplish"? are you kidding me? Quit NOW if you feel that way!

On the hand where Ron quickly bet out into the QQ4 flop with A8, I thought Juha was going to raise as a bluff, assuming that he had no real strength in his hand.... and Juha does. Ron gave that away IMO by betting so fast, making it "obvious" that he didn't have a hand. Anyone else think that?

Is Juha raising EVERY Ace hand that he has? Learn your lesson and slow down! Howard reraises with little and knocks Juha off of the hand- will Juha be able to take advantage later?
Soon after that, Juha has A4off- learn the lesson and fold to Jose's raise! No, he rerasises!! And Jose dumps- lucky. Given Juha's moves, I think the action the rest of the way in the show may get pretty animated...

- ONE hand shown and then we go to another commercial?! Are you KIDDING me, NBC?!'
- Anyone familiar with the Bellagio know where they set up the WPT stage and final table? Where did they play the preliminary rounds?

I really didn't understand why Ron checked his hand, as if he was representing a flush or straight draw, when the board was 2sKc5d3s... and then he check-raises with the J8off hand! I thought Jose had to call, but did this come across like Ron had two pair, similar to the hand that Ron check-raised prior in the tournament? Jose folds, nice play Ron- I'm a fool for questioning your play, I guess.

I don't think I liked Jose's all-in with AToff soon after that hand, after big stack Ron calls in front.... then again, with this hand it's raise or fold, correct?
When Juha got timed out by that damn clock, killing his hand, I KNEW he was going to do it. I figured when he delayed that long that he'd already decided to fold earlier and was using the clock for drama or some other purpose.

- Sure, Shana comes strolling on camera in a tiny bikini and says "log onto the WPT website"... what, where we can find more pictures of you barely dressed? Too gratuitous for me!
I do have to say that I like the new look of the worldpokertour.com website, however.

Was Juha raising or folding every hand that he played? Did he ever just call early on? Is that why, when Juha raised on the button with QToff, Howard reraised with K2off? Did Howard read that Juha had a crappy hand? Juha did fold... nice job, Howard.

I thought Ron's reraise of Howard, with Ron holding 77 on the button, was a really nice move/read. I DIDN'T like Howard call here with the K3s- that crappy kicker can't help much.
I cannot BELIEVE that Mike Sexton thought that Ron was too aggressive betting 200K with a flop of JoTd8d! A smaller pair, with a flopped gutshot and backdoor flush? Isn't this a no-brainer bet, other than deciding on the amount? Ron can't call here or check, not against Howard!

- When did AKs become "the mother of all hands" Vince??

What a bad beat for Howard when the 8 came on the river for Jose, gutting Howard's two pair with trips. That's just what happens when I play AK and flop top pair, especially after someone stupidly (Ron!) shows me the folded AJoff as he folds.

I KNEW Ron was going to check-raise when he checked his Kh8h when the flop came with two hearts and the 8. Was Juha's Tc9h a strong enough hand on the Th7h8s flop to reraise back, all-in? Couldn't he have reraised for a lessor amount and accomplished what he wanted, against most hands?

I was REALLY surprised by Howard's all-in with 63off after Jose raised. Given stack sizes, did Howard really think that he could take it away from Jose?

- PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get rid of that STUPID money drop thing! I really despise it...

- VVP "It's not about the money, it's about destiny" are you KIDDING me?!? Or are all of them playing for no cash prizes here? Shut up, Vince!

Near the end, how can Ron not bet his straight and flush draw, that exist on the turn, after Jose has checked twice? Pretty wimpy poker with the big stack, if you ask me. He was really lucky that Jose caught the second pair and called on the river- Ron shouldn't have made any more money on the hand, checking behind Jose.... or was Ron smartly taking advantage of Jose's aggressiveness?

Ron with J7d flops two pair on a JT7 rainbow flop.... and only reraises 200K? Is that enough in this spot not to get called? Does it make sense to play it this way? Of course, the game is over- the obvious "10:58 rule" rears its ugly head again....

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Even though Howard Ledherer lost when he bluffed all in with 6 3, I have to say, what a classy way to go out. Can't help but respect him for making that move.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Lederer made a horrible decision by risking his whole stack on 63o. You can make a reasonable arguement for doing it with 65s but not with 63o. Lederer had enough of a stack left to stay alive for quite a while. Make your plays with some semblance of a hand just in case you get called.

I wonder if getting rivered by the set of 8's really tilted him.

[Mike Gallo]

I wonder if getting rivered by the set of 8's really tilted him.

I wondered the same thing.

[Nottom]

I was wondering the same thing, although I also wonder if he picked up on something (or thought he picked up on something) about Jose's bet that made him think he would lay it down.

I was pretty shocked Jose took as long as he did to make the call, and if he was actually capable of making the fold then I start to like Howard's play a bit more.

[ElSapo]

The hand that shocked me - and I may get the details wrong - was Jose's KTs. He flops top pair, and checks it. Calls the turn bet when his opponent has only jack-high, and folds the river. I thought this was one of the worst played hands, but maybe I missed something...

[Easy E]

He sure made it seem as if a fold was a strong possibility.

[southerndog]

Do you consider that getting rivered? Isn't it kind
of different when someone's all in?

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]
Lederer made a horrible decision by risking his whole stack on 63o.

[/ QUOTE ]

It did seem very un-Howard like. Huge risk, small reward, and the only way you win is if the other guy folds. The only thing I can think of is, knowing that everyone would be watching, he was trying to loosen up his image so that he can take advantage in future, bigger events.

[Easy E]

betting had little to do with it... though I see your point since they were all-in preflop and Jose had the better hand at that point.

[harboral]

You think Howard wanted to loosen-up his image "for future bigger events"? - and what bigger events would those be? He was tilted -

[harboral]

Typical of TV to screw with something like a clock. (Yes, I have been "put on the clock" in a live game, but that is very rare, and usually after two or three minutes the aggressor will ask for the clock) Still, I think it is TV crap and totally unnecessary. Too bad.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if getting rivered by the set of 8's really tilted him.

I wondered the same thing.



[/ QUOTE ]

Howard, of all people should know that he didn't get rivered by anything, he had all his money in beforer the flop on a hand that he was a tiny underdog. He knew this. He made a play on Jose and got caught, that's the end of that.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
but maybe I missed something...

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you didn't miss anything. He checked the flop, to get action, then crumpled like a cheap suit when he got some. Just bad poker.

[AceHigh]

And he was trying to bluff Jose. Probably the player at the final table LEAST likely to fold to an all-in raise.

[TimTimSalabim]

I don't think Howard tilts that easily. He's probably had a hundred beats worse than that in his career. Bigger events like WSOP and WPT championship, where the big money and prestige are. Now everyone who plays against him will be thinking about the 63o whenever he raises. Just a theory.

[George Rice]

The clock added a lot of excitement to the broadcast--especially for someone who doesn't play regularly. But it's a bit too short. At least 90 seconds is more like it, maybe 120. It's necessary for network TV, especially if it's a live event. In a taped event they can edit out time if they deem it necessary.

Playing with the clock will certainly change the game though. With no time to think things out, players will be forced to go on their first impression. The better players will realize this and adjust accordingly.

[Easy E]

between seeing it early and getting through to the river to get stabbed in the heart on a big pot that could take someone out.... no matter who you are.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
between seeing it early and getting through to the river to get stabbed in the heart on a big pot that could take someone out.... no matter who you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's still not a bad beat, that's my point. Further, you don't tilt out on 6,3 off. I mean, I don't care how steamed you are, you know that isn't a hand that's playable. He simply thought Jose was weak and made a play and got caught with his hand in the cookie jar as Mike Sexton would say.

[baggins]

i believe Mike Sexton DID say exactly that...

[HUSKER'66]

The tournament had a $250K prize pool, as well as an auto entry into the finals at the end of the year.

[Legend27]

I was glad to see that there is some sort of time limit. I started out playing online and that's what I'm used to. You don't get all day to think about what you're going to do no matter how big the hand is. You get your 60 seconds and that's it. Again, that's what I'm used to. I can see how some one who is used playing live would be bothered by this.