Folded my straight... good move?

[bicyclekick]

Party Poker 2/4 (10 handed)
Hero has 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif and is MP1

EP1 limps, Hero limps, CO limps, Button limps, BB limps, UTG checks

Flop(6 SB): Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB checks, UTG checks, EP1 bets, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls, BB folds, UTG folds

Turn(5 BB): K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

EP1 checks, Hero bets, CO folds, Button calls, EP1 calls

River(8 BB): 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif

EP1 bets, Hero folds, Button calls



I've been really working on my game as of late...and one of my big leaks over my first 18,000 2/4 party hands is my 50% showdown win rates. So I've been making more folds. I've folded more winners, and for some reason those sting more then calling down and losing, but I think it saves chips in the long run by far. I've also dropped my pf% from 30 to 25. I feel like I'm playing much better.

Anyhow, how was this river fold?

[Stu Pidasso]

After reviewning your play, I can only recommend that you consider giving up poker.

Stu

[bicyclekick]

Ouch.

It would be a lot more constructive if you'd give some explaination. I agree with you my fold here was bad, but I wanted to know the extent of how bad. (edit- i also wanted to add some deception in the title...so people wouldn't get results oriented) I'm trying to learn to be more tight...which is probably turning me a little more weak tight, cause I've kinda been kinda loose aggressive.

[bisonbison]

call the river. please.

And if you're looking to plug leaks, push your preflop percentage down to 20. it'll save you more money that a lot of questionable river folds.

[bicyclekick]

I still can't believe what you wrote, and for some reason I feel the need to defend myself.

I started playing online back in the November OIC and turned that 50 into 150. I then took it out and started playing .50/1 at party. Plyaed 6000 hands of that and made up to 400 and decided to take a shot at 2/4. Made it up to 2900 before I crashed down to 2000. Dropped back to .50/1 to get my act back together...which I did and I was beating that game consistantly for another 1000 hands or so. I go word of pacific pokers easyness. So i deposited 400 with the 25% bonus, took out my 400 and just decided to take a crack at 2/4. Got up to 400 when I read a post about the softness of the 5/10 game. Turned the 400 into 1600. Cought a real string of cards/got paid off by retards. THen decided I didn't really have the bankroll to handle the ups and downs of 5/10 so I'm back playing 3 party 1 pacific 2/4 at a time...I also played 100 hands of tru poker 1/2 to clear for the ss vs zoo and made about a hundred bucks...that was a rush, for sure. Cards just really came.

So...I started with NOTHING, and I'm at 3200 right now. [censored] luck. I don't think you can win that much and be completely lucky. F that. You should see the luck I got on my $900 swing at 2/4. Just yesterday i had 4 sets in a row cracked. 3 by 1 card straights and 1 by a flush. It happens.

[symphonic]

I would've called, a 4 dollar call to win a 40 dollar pot (after his final bet and your call), is more than good enough odds with your straight to see if he made the flush or not.

[Nottom]

Folding for 1 bet in a big pot is the worst mistake you can make in this little game of ours.

You can find a better spot than this to try and save a bet.

Also, raise the flop.

[BugsBunny]

Your play on this hand was atrocious. If this is your normal style of play then the only reason you're winning is because your opponents are even worse - which is all you need to win, so that's not necessarily a bad thing. But your game needs some serious work.

1) Raise/reraise/cap the flop - at this moment you have the nuts. If anyone is going to draw out and beat you make them pay the max to do it.

2) Call the river

[bicyclekick]

I was going for a turn raise assuming no spade fell.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
I still can't believe what you wrote, and for some reason I feel the need to defend myself.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, perhaps what I wrote was overly harsh, but you really did butcher this hand. Lets take a look at each street.

Preflop: You can play 9Ts from EP under certain game conditions. The game has to be very loose and very passive both pre and post-flop. If you are routinely limping from EP with this hand you are making a mistake.

Flop: You made your hand on the flop and it is the NUTS!. What you already know about straights is that they are the most vulnerable of the made hands. EP1 bets into you and you just call. Raise....Protect the F------ hand! Hopefully you will get three bet so you can cap-it!.

Turn: You done good here.

River: What makes you think EP1 has a flush? Raise his ass.

Stu

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
I was going for a turn raise assuming no spade fell

[/ QUOTE ]

What for? A raise on the turn won't drive a flush draw out in this game. A raise on the turn would fold out middle pairs, but why would you want to do that?

Stu

[Bob T.]

First, why do you think winning 50% of the showdowns is bad? If the pots are frequently multiway at the end, and I believe they are at party 2-4, that is a reasonable statistic. Many times you get to the river, and the pot is offering you 7, 10, or even more to 1 to call that last bet. You certainly don't want to be winning 50% of those hands, or you will be leaving a lot of money on the table.

Folding a straight on the river was terrible.

[bernie]

raising the flop will help you define the opponents hand better so you can make a better, informed decision on folding to later action should the flush hit. even then, id usually call a single bet.

if knowing you will fold this type of hand for 1 bet on the river, he can pick a great spot to bluff here. you didnt exactly play it like a flush draw, so that opens the door for him to try it. of course, he may not be thinking this much nor observing all of that, but ya never know.

the stronger a hand you're folding, the better you're read better be. it doesnt sound like it was strong enough read to fold, especially given your folding winners tendency that you found.

b

[Bob T.]

Play tight preflop, sorta tight on the flop, and looser after that as the pot gets bigger and the odds get longer.

[HajiShirazu]

You just better hope majorkong doesn't read this post...
I absolutely think you win this hand 11.1% of the time. I can think of tons and tons of hands that you beat. In fact I think you probably win almost half the time. It's likely, but EP1 doesnt have to have a flush to bet here. He might have made two pair.

[bunky9590]

JEEZ! You folded a str8 for a single bet in limit hold'em???? With that pot??

Man I thought my wife was a weak tight player.

Horrible fold.

[sfer]

The fold was bad but so was the flop play. You've got the nuts but your hand is vulnerable to flush draws and larger straights if you get counterfeited. With that many callers, it's likely that people are drawing gutshots and flushes and willing to pay multiple bets to see the turn. You have to extract value from them. Having a bet in front of you is a gift so raise.

[Jim Easton]

[ QUOTE ]
good move?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Terrible move. There are many hands he EP could have other than the flush.

Raise and reraise the flop.

Call the river.

[Homer]

River: What makes you think EP1 has a flush? Raise his ass.

No. Just call.

[bicyclekick]

Good. Got just what I needed...a little public embarrasment for a horrible play. This really isn't how I usually play, I promise.

It was up there with my worst plays of all time, and I knew it soon as I folded, which I still really can't justify, I htink i just really wanted to get away from calling too much [censored] and I took it to the extreme and let that thought blind me.

Wont happen again. Thanks for the feedback guys (seriously). I definately got the point, even though I really knew it myself.

[bernie]

sometimes ya gotta hear it from someone else for it to really take hold.

b

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
River: What makes you think EP1 has a flush? Raise his ass.


No. Just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Homer,

He can make the raise on the river if he is willing to fold to a reraise.

Stu

[Homer]

Even if he can, I still think it is the wrong play. Heads-up, I'd be more likely to agree with you, but with a potential overcaller behind him, I believe just calling is best.

-- Homer

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Heads-up, I'd be more likely to agree with you, but with a potential overcaller behind him, I believe just calling is best.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're correct. Somewhere in this thread(I think it was symphonics post) I got the ideal it was heads up on the river.

Stu

[Ed Miller]

I've been really working on my game as of late...and one of my big leaks over my first 18,000 2/4 party hands is my 50% showdown win rates. So I've been making more folds. I've folded more winners, and for some reason those sting more then calling down and losing, but I think it saves chips in the long run by far.

You are totally on the wrong track. Limit hold 'em is not about making laydowns on the river. You should reread HPFAP.

[Ed Miller]

Please. Just calling on the flop cannot be called "atrocious." In fact, it may be the right decision. The river fold is bad, though.

[Ed Miller]

You just better hope majorkong doesn't read this post...

Lol.. he almost escaped me. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Yes, the river fold is terrible. Those of you who strongly criticize his play before the river are wrong, though.

[Ed Miller]

Having a bet in front of you is a gift so raise.

I disagree strongly. With this hand, a bet on your right is a curse, not a gift. In this unraised pot, you would like to get value after the flop for your straight. When the bet comes from your right, that is harder to do. You would much prefer the bet on your left so you can trap the field for two bets.

[BugsBunny]

If it was just the call I wouldn't have said atrocious. I was talking about the overall play of the hand - and the river fold overrode anything else.

Although I am curious as to why the call was a better play then a raise in this case. Is it the "if the flush card doesn't come then raise" play or is it something else?

Edit: OK - I just read one of the other responses and I get it. The flush draw is staying anyway. You want to punish everyone else and trap them for multiple bets if possible. By raising you'll be driving out the very hands you want to keep in, in this case.

[harboral]

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Those of you who strongly criticize his play before the river are wrong, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed,

This is not the spot for the "I will wait until the turn to raise becuase a turn raise will get people to fold their hand play". Weather you raise the flop or the turn your stuck with the draws. The reason you raise the flop is becuase you want to fold out anyone who might pick up a draw.

Stu

[Jim Easton]

It's a Party 2/4 with a QJ8, 2 spade flop. It is easy for the others to have a piece of this flop and they aren't folding to a raise.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Those of you who strongly criticize his play before the river are wrong, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed,

This is not the spot for the "I will wait until the turn to raise becuase a turn raise will get people to fold their hand play". Weather you raise the flop or the turn your stuck with the draws. The reason you raise the flop is becuase you want to fold out anyone who might pick up a draw.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Ed that the flop decision is pretty close to neutral either way.

The pot wasn't raised before the flop. And the opening bet has come *immediately* in front of him. I think a quick 2-bet on the flop would fold out the hands he wants to call - middle pair, and so forth - but not any flush draws, which would have the proper odds to call two. Raising immediately also reduces the potential for a different player to raise in front of him, allowing a 3-bet or cap when it comes back around.

I've gotten burned on enough made straigths that I'd usually be inclined to raise, but I hardly think that the decision is automatic.

[Ed Miller]

This is not the spot for the "I will wait until the turn to raise becuase a turn raise will get people to fold their hand play".

Of course not. Did anyone mention this in the thread?

Weather you raise the flop or the turn your stuck with the draws. The reason you raise the flop is becuase you want to fold out anyone who might pick up a draw.

You flopped a straight in an unraised pot. Your focus should be first on maximizing your action after the flop, not on protecting your hand. I'm not saying that raising is necessarily wrong. I am saying that it is not clear whether you should raise or call. It depends on your opponents' tendencies; if they are willing to call two cold with weak hands and draws, then the raise is good. If they are going to make prudent folds when it is two bets to them, you might call instead.

[Ed Miller]

Raising may be best. My points in this thread are:

1. Don't fold on the river /images/graemlins/smile.gif
2. Raising the flop is not automatic. Whether you should raise or call depends on the tendencies of your opponents.
3. You would prefer a bet on your left to a bet on your right.

[Dylan Wade]

I don't understand how it could ever be correct to call the flop. His flopped straight is not very vulnerable. He is mainly concerned about a flush beating him, but there is still value in building a pot! Especially with several players that he is likely ahead of.


??

[Ed Miller]

You are right. He should want to build a pot. Sometimes calling will build a pot better than raising.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Your focus should be first on maximizing your action after the flop, not on protecting your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

The flop raise will often accomplish both maximizing your action and protecting your hand. It is wrong to think both goals are mutually exclusive.

Stu

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
His flopped straight is not very vulnerable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think of all the cards that can come on the turn that make his hand very vulnerable, including those that cause him to chop.

Stu

[Jim Easton]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Don't fold on the river


[/ QUOTE ]

I believe this one is unanimous.

[ QUOTE ]
2. Raising the flop is not automatic. Whether you should raise or call depends on the tendencies of your opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, but the tendencies of Party 2/4 players would be to call with any pair and any draw (if they have a 9 or a T in their hand, they aren't folding.) Adjustments can certainly be made to that general rule for tighter tables.

[ QUOTE ]
3. You would prefer a bet on your left to a bet on your right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, I just don't necessarily see the bet on his right as a curse.

[Dylan Wade]

Chopping isn't a big concern here because we already have a pat hand. Let's see. I wouldn't like to see a T or a spade on the turn. That's 9 spades and 3 tens, or 12/47 cards. Meaning there's a 25% chance you'll see a dangerous card on the turn. Apx, 50% chance that you'll see a dangerous card on either turn or river. However, you're up against 5 loose opponents. Imagine if you had them trapped. Would you want to to make 5 times your money for every bet on a 50-50 shot? Hell ya. And reality is, you're odds are likely better than 50-50, because you're not always going to be up against a flush draw or AK. In fact, you can put AK as a fairly low probability because the pot wasn't raised PF. (Or TK,etc..which i've actually ignored.)

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Chopping isn't a big concern here because we already have a pat hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This does not make any sense.

[ QUOTE ]
That's 9 spades and 3 tens, or 12/47 cards. Meaning there's a 25% chance you'll see a dangerous card on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could think of 27 cards I really do not want to see on the turn and an additional 6 more cards that I would rather not see come as well.

Stu

[Dylan Wade]

If you chop..... heck let's say you chop 5 ways. You don't lose money. If you think you're facing a 5 way chop, you could call the flop. Drawing to a chop is the no-no.

But most likely you'll only chop one way. You still have value to raise the flop even if you knew a player held 9T. So, fearing a chop with a pat hand is rarely a concern.


I imagine you're getting a lot of other 27 *dangerous* cards from the board pairing. That's really irrelavent. You have to also factor in the chance that someone has the hand to beat you. Sure the board could pair, but that usually doesn't mean jack squat.

[bernie]

have to admit, my first thought was to raise the flop. which is fine to do. it's not necesarily wrong to do. but in some cases, as you stated, it can be less optimal of a play.

but i think what ed is getting at is the overcalls on the flop by weaker hands/draws that are making a mistake calling that single bet if they knew what you held. the flush draw is coming along anyways and making money doing it with that many possible callers. ok, i like that.

but this case could also be made for just calling the turn if you knew you were going to get many overcallers behind you who may also be drawing dead or near dead. but in this case, no one bet into him on the turn. ( i think mason did a 'hand to talk about' where he just called the whole way with a winner awhile back similar to this. didnt clark do a hand that he said he played like mason and hated to play that way also?)

i would still hate not raising somewhere here for many points that stu is making. there has to be somewhere you have to try and take it away from even small draws that may draw out on the river. (much like part of the 'wait for the turn' concept the idea of maximizing your 'chances' at winning still apply a little here) are you saying that you would also just call the turn if bet into? getting the bad overcalls behind you who are making mistakes calling another bet on the turn. i could see that as a good play depending on their hands, but id hate to do it that way.

b

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
If you chop..... heck let's say you chop 5 ways. You don't lose money

[/ QUOTE ]

Semantics.

You have the best hand right now. The entire pot belongs to you. If your opponent has 9x, and a T comes and you end up chopping, he just cost you 1/2 the pot. That's the position Stu (and others) are taking.

[pudley4]

Most winning players whose stats I've seen are around 55% at the showdown.

It's fine to wait until the turn to raise. However, you must be sure the flop bettor will bet the turn.

-If he's betting a spade draw, he most likely won't bet the turn (unless he's aggressive or hits a pair).
-If the turn comes an overcard, he might freeze up (if he's betting a Q).
-If the turn puts 4 to a straight on board, he might freeze up.

Call the river.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
It's fine to wait until the turn to raise. However, you must be sure the flop bettor will bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see raising on the flop as clearly the superior play in just about every situation where you flop a made straight in a large multiway field.

Flopped straights will not improve as a hand progresses. In fact as every new street is revealed, the value of a flopped straight almost always decreases. Becuase you lose value as the hand progresses, you make most of your money early in the hand.

Am I wrong here?


Stu

[sfer]

I've been thinking about this most of the day at work, which makes it more productive than the standard Monday, and I think I see what you mean.

But, assume that you're in the same position, and you think the weak draws fold to two bets but the flush/straight draws call. Would you raise or call? Calling against a huge field full of draws just feels bad. The hand cannot improve so it just seems natural to try to protect it.

[bernie]

doesnt it depend on how slim they are drawing in the first place? the flush is coming along. but if others are already making a mistake by calling just one bet, why not let them in? any gutshot to a chop in this hand you can figure as a 2 out draw.

if the pot was bigger, id agree more on raising it. ed kinda switched me a little. bastard. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif but i still like the idea of raising the flop. he also put in the disclaimer about if the players behind will call 2, go ahead.

im wondering about the turn play. if someone bets into me, id really want to raise and blast out the miracles at that point. but using the same logic for the turn as the flop, they may be making a mistake to be calling there for a single bet also.

so for now, ill just raise the turn if i choose to just call the flop. though it will be hard to restrain myself from raising the flop.

b

[BaronVonCP]

[ QUOTE ]
But, assume that you're in the same position, and you think the weak draws fold to two bets but the flush/straight draws call. Would you raise or call?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the whole argument for calling the flop. The weak draws will call one (you don't accomplish much by knocking them out because they are drawing very slim), and the strong draws will call 2. So raising loses the folks willing to put in money with their slim draws.

[slavic]

You do not make folds with made hands on the river for 1 bet. You may be beat most of the time, but it does not matter, over the long run you will come out ahead.

Often, often, often you will be bet into or raised by a player who suddenly thinks he has enough strength to beat you but has far less than the nuts and when you don't call you will have wasted several hours of good solid play.

On this flop you also need to jam.

[slavic]

3. You would prefer a bet on your left to a bet on your right.

Amen

Unfortunatly it didn't come from your left. I still think you have to raise this flop however. People tend to call 2 cold on the flop with an overcard gutshot.