$1/$2 flop decision

[greenage]

UltimateBet 1/2 (9 handed)
Hero has 8d 4d and is SB

UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks

Flop(5 SB): Kc, 7d, 5d

Hero ???

thank you in advance

[Brian]

Hi greenage,

Easy bet. What else are you considering?

-Brian

[greenage]

Hi Brian,

That’s what I thought too and regretted checking as soon as I did. Figured my cards were pretty weak, but why complete if I’m not going to play, right?

Don’t think I saw the straight-flush gutshot until after I checked; does that make much of a difference in your decision?

[csuf_gambler]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi greenage,

Easy bet. What else are you considering?

-Brian

[/ QUOTE ]

well he could check call. his got nothing but a draw

[Wyrm2]

Yeah you want to bet this... you have a 4 flush, and a gutshot straight draw, that's 13 outs that look pretty good. Your making money on every call with those odds. You might occasionally lose to another flush (especially if 2 more diamonds fall), but overall this should be a positive situation for you.

If you are going to complete the SB with 2 low suited cards then this is about as good a flop as you can get.

[thirddan]

Fold Preflop...
Bet Flop...

[fluff]

Um...no. Pre-flop call is ok from small blind for half a small bet.

[thirddan]

i think that this call is very marginal even from the sb, i might complete if there were more limpers, but i have pretty much junk and i am in worst position...just my take on the hand...

[Brian]

Hi thirddan,

Most 2+2'ers advocate completing in the SB for 1/2 a bet with any two suited cards.

-Brian

[Brian]

Hi wyrm,

Not to nitpick, but just to make sure that you know: He has only 12 outs. All 9 diamonds, and 3 gutshot outs (not 4, because one of them is a diamond).

-Brian

[Brian]

Hi csuf_gambler,

While there are certainly places for checking and calling in limit Hold'em, this is not one of them, and in general it is not the correct approach to most situations. First of all, there was no pre-Flop raise, and the board is fairly raggedy. This means a couple of things:

1) It is not very likely for his bet to be raised. He would hate to bet out and have the BB raise him, shutting everyone else out and making him pay 2 bets to see the Turn. Had the BB raised pre-Flop, then checking and going from there is a fine play.
2) Because of the small number of opponents, betting may allow him to pick up the pot, if not on the Flop, then perhaps on the Turn.
3) He actually has a strong hand. While [ QUOTE ]
his got nothing but a draw

[/ QUOTE ] is accurate, he will complete his draw (and presumably have the winning hand) close to 1/2 of the time. That means that for every bet that goes into the pot on the Flop, he is making money. No matter what happens when he bets, something good is happening for him. If he gets 0 callers, then great, he won the pot. If he gets 1, then he is in an excellent situation to pick the pot up on the Turn, and he hasnt lost any money from his bet. If he gets 2 or more, he is getting value on his draw.
4) Betting adds deception to his hand. His opponents will definitely not read him for a straight were he to make it, and they might not think he has the Flush.
5) etc etc etc.

I see absolutely no point in checking and calling.

-Brian

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
5) etc etc etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good points (although #5 is questionable /images/graemlins/wink.gif ). But I don't think it's an automatic bet. Betting or check-calling are both decent options, depending on your current table image and the types of players you're facing.

I would definitely bet/raise from late position.

But from early position, you have to worry about being isolated by a raiser to your left.

If I thought a bet had a decent chance of picking up the pot, I'd bet. If I thought a bet would be called by several opponents (but not raised), I'd bet. Otherwise, I may check with the intention of raising if the BB bets and gets several callers.

With 12 outs, even if they are all good (which they won't always be if anyone else has any piece of the flop or a diamond higher than your 8), you will win this pot less than half the time. So you really don't want to get heads up here.

Brian has made some great points in favor of raising, so I'll make a few in favor of checking.

1. You are unlikely to make all four opponents fold. (Although this could depend on your table image and on how tight the other players are.)

2. Betting from early position may get you fewer callers than if you check and let a late-position player bet for you.

3. Checking allows you to trap several players for a raise if someone to your left bets and gets a few callers.

[HajiShirazu]

My guidelines from the SB are "any two suited that can use both cards to make a straight, any suited face card, and any other hand I would normally play from late position." Well, 84s makes it I guess. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Bet this flop for value, and 3-bet if raised and you think everybody else will call more bets. You are about even money against top pair.

[Trix]

I wouldn´t always call with any-two suited in the sb, but most of the time. Sometimes I would even call and then fold if BB raise.
This is a call for sure.
Flop is an easy bet.

[greenage]

First, thank you for the input.

Flop(5 SB): K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn(5 BB): 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets, MP calls, Button calls, Hero raises.
BB folds, UTG folds, MP calls, Button calls.

River(12 BB): J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Hero checks, MP checks, Button bets, Hero calls, MP folds.

Button had A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif

On the flop, checking and calling was probably the worst way to play this.

On the turn, I don’t know if going for the check-raise was wise since the third diamond might scare off a bettor as we see with the BB. Fortunately UTG took up the slack and it worked out, sort of.

On the river, well phooey.