Defending in the BB with A7o

[sweetjazz]

Looking for suggestions on how to play this hand:

5-handed home game. UTG is a pretty solid player, a little looser pre-flop than optimal probably but not incredibly loose. He raises and it's folded around to me in the BB with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I call the raise and it's two to the flop for 4.5 SBs.

Flop comes A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif. I check-he bets-I call.

Turn is 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I check-he bets-I call.

River is 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I check-he bets-I call.

Any suggestions for how else to play this hand? Results to be posted later.

[naphand]

Ugh....you played this hand for minimum profit, and told your opponent you are too weak to raise TP, but happy to call along "just in case".

His raise UTG could be a good A, it could also be 88-KK, KQ or even a little less if the table is playing weak/tight.

You have to be scared of a better A in this instance, but why did you call if you thought he had a better A than you? You are dominated and drawing very thin in that case, so just save yourself the trouble and fold it early.

Either FOLD this PF, or CR the flop. You can expect him to bet into you on any flop, as the aggressor, with any pair so your CR tells him for sure you have the A (unless you also CR draws). Then it's up to him to decide to continue or check/call YOU to the River.

Has your opponent seen enough of your play to know that you (i) call any part of the Flop to the River, (ii) will not raise TP with a weak kicker HU, or (iii) you will come out guns blazing with TP HU? Will he recognise your CR for what it is?

I would CR this flop, call a 3-bet and fold to a bet on the Turn unimproved, sometimes I would call down to avoid getting pushed around HU in other hands (if you always fold to a flop 3-bet and Turn bet, you will find yourself getting bluffed a lot). But you cannot get any respect at the table (or profit for that matter) by playing your hands this weakly - DO SOMETHING on the Flop or the Turn.

You paid 2.5 BB's to find out if you were ahead on the River, when a CR (costing 1BB) would likely have told you on the Flop.

My guess is your opponent showed a pocket pair (like KK) and you took down the pot.

[sweetjazz]

Thanks for your comments. Afterwards, I was thinking more along the lines of playing the hand as you suggested. Here's what my line of thinking was on the hand (not to say I am certain it's right, but it "felt right" at the table and still did even as I thought about it later).

First, I checked the flop b/c if he checks behind I know my ace is good. My opp has never slowplayed when there's any kind of a draw on the flop. When he bets, I know he's either got A with better kicker, a pocket pair, or 2 broadway cards (probably one of them a club) that he is pushing.

He is an aggressive player, who is not likely to respect my check-raise (more likely to view it is an attempt to re-steal with a small pair or club draw). I don't think he's going to lay down a hand to check raise before the river unless he autobet with a weak hand (KQ or KJ) that is practically drawing dead to my aces. I'd like to induce him to keep betting this hand, hoping that I have a small pair that will fold to his repeated pressure. I know that he will autobet the turn when I check the flop (in case I am on a draw).

I figured that if I showed strength at any point, he was likely to call me down with anything and raise back when he was ahead. My hand seemed to be ideal to catch a bluff or a misplaced PP value bet. Basically, I was thinking that I wanted to get to a showdown as cheap as possible, without decreasing the chances that he will bet when he is behind.

Because I am out of position, I realize that I risk losing a bet at the river if he checks behind with nothing. I seriously considered betting the river, though I think he is aggressive enough that I have to call if he reraises despite the fact that my hand is probably (~80% of the time) no good. Also, I'd clearly reraise the flop if I were in position, as that sets up a chance for me to check behind on the turn (hopefully inducing a bluff on the river from him if he has nothing).

I am really starting to question my initial decision to call the UTG raise in the BB with A7o. I find it hard to get much profit out of my hand when I do hit the flop b/c of the danger of being outkicked with aces and the likelihood of having medium or bottom pair with sevens. Maybe I am playing this hand too weak-tight. I definitely don't play too well out of position, and in my home game I have generally had more success trying to look weak and induce bluffs when I have a hand than betting out (which works well as a semibluff but less so, it seems to me, as a value bet unless I'm protecting a vulnerable hand).

But I'd definitely appreciate any more commentary or suggestions, as I do think this type of hand is one of the (too numerous) weak points in my game.

[davidross]

You have hit upon a perfect example of why position is so important in these games. I just got Pokertracker this week, and although I have only 1 week of information, the first thing I noticed is that I'm losing money with all my aces under AT. A7 is a big loser for me, and since I only play it from the cutoff, button and blinds, hands like this one are clearly the reason.

I won't call a legitimate EP raise with A7 even from the BB for exactly the reason you noted. You are unable to get the extra bet when you are good, and you're going to pay the extra bet when you're behind. If I do find myself in a hand like this I will usually bet the river. Unless he ahs a monster he is unlikely to raise you for fear you paired your kicker on the river. I don't like the flop check-raise here because you now have him afraid you flopped 2 pair, and he'll just call you down with AK and you still lose the same. You also let TT off easy that way.

Against a good player there is just no good way to squeeze extra bets out.

[sweetjazz]

UTG showed A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif and took down the pot.

[AJo Go All In]

[ QUOTE ]
it could also be 88-KK, KQ or even a little less if the table is playing weak/tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
so your CR tells him for sure you have the A


[/ QUOTE ]

your advice doesn't make sense. if we think he likely has a lower pocket pair, why would we want to tell him for sure that we have an ace?

[naphand]

I did not say it was "likely" his opponent was on PP, it was just a possibility (and the only one our hero could win with here, I was trying to think into this hand from his perspective).

The point being, he was afraid he was against a better A. By representing the A, if he had been re-raised it would have been easier to lay down the hand, and save himself from calling to the River to find out (as happened).

If his opponent was on a pair lower than an A he might fold it, or he might call down.

Personally I would fold this against the good player's UTG raise. If he's on a pair, you are drawing to an A only, if he's on an A you're dominated and drawing very thin.

I think HU, if you are unsure, you should raise the flop to see where you're at (he could also have bet out rather than checking, to test his opponent). He did not describe UTG as particularly tricky, in fact he called him "solid".

I just prefer to know where I stand in a hand like this. So what if I fold it? it's only a small pot, you're out of position, and this play is probably -EV anyway.

I guess some people feel the need to play tricky (or "tricky/passive"? /images/graemlins/wink.gif), but sometimes straightforward play is a better play (as it would have been here). Maybe in the higher limit games you need to get clever, but in low-limit that's rarely the case. It's not really my policy to call to the River with weak hands that might hold up, I would rather quit early or put my opponent under pressure.

[Your Mom]

you are either way ahead or way behind. I would check-call the flop and turn and bet the river.

[James282]

I would fold preflop. Since you got there, you played it perfectly on the flop and the turn but you should bet the river for value.
-James

[stripsqueez]

i recently spent some time with my pokertracker stats looking at these hands - i have 22,000 hands of 5/10, 10/20, 15/30 6 max

i looked at A2o - A8o in the big blind when its raised pre-flop excluding heads up with the SB - in total for all these limits and hands i was losing about $450 or .05 of a big bet per hand - my overall stats are losing .12 of a big bet in the big blind - the higher kickers were doing marginally better but for example i was losing with A7o but winning with A3o - the value of the "big" kicker is perhaps tempered by the straight making ability of the little kickers - obviously its not a huge sample

i'm not certain what i do is optimal but i was happy enough with this finding

i dont like to play these hands 4 way or more because you need to hit a huge flop - even then i will play them occasionally given the pre-flop odds on offer - i normally regard whether or not the SB plays as an important part of the equation - ie i am not first to act and it gives me some potential leverage

3 way my default posistion is to play for a raise although i fold if i have a firm view that the raiser is genuine - my default view obviously includes that a raiser in these schools is commonly not genuine - if the SB plays as indicated i am very likely to play

heads up not including the SB i play virtually all the time - if an ace hits i probably beat a pair of kings - if my kicker hits i probably beat AK

post flop is always awkward - i have a selection of paying off AQo etc included in my stats

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[eugeneel]

I think you played this hand perfectly, don't listen to the people that say you didn't.

If you checkraise the flop, the guy is going to call you down with a higher ace (maybe raising the river or three betting the flop as well)

He may fold his mid to high pair if you bet or raise at any point so you don't want that.

You also want to check, call because this way you are

1) inducing bluffs from hands like KQ KJ and a few others because it looks like you are on a flush or straight draw.

2) because you are giving him the impression that his mid pair is good so you will be taking down a very nice pot.

3) you can go for a very effective checkraise on the river if you hit your 2 pair.

-Eugene

[ike]

This is why this is an automatic fold preflop. You're frequently dominated and almost never a favorite. Theres no flop you can get short of 2 pair or trips with which you're confident. Even if the flop comes 7 high you have to worry about an over pair and if theres an ace you obviously have kicker problems. Save money, stop defending your blinds with small aces (I'd never call this raise with less than ATs or AJo, and even those are possible folds depending on opponent).

[Peter_rus]

[ QUOTE ]
This is why this is an automatic fold preflop. You're frequently dominated and almost never a favorite. Theres no flop you can get short of 2 pair or trips with which you're confident. Even if the flop comes 7 high you have to worry about an over pair and if theres an ace you obviously have kicker problems. Save money, stop defending your blinds with small aces (I'd never call this raise with less than ATs or AJo, and even those are possible folds depending on opponent).

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I'm totally disagree with that statement. I would play this hand differently - i wold check-call the flop and then check-raise turn. Don't overstate effect of domination. Basical raiser can have 77/KQo/JTs. So probability of ace in his hand is near 40%, BUT this probability is actually less because YOU holding another ace. You're estimately much more times than behind heads up on this flop. As well as on flop like 279 with your seven, because raiser had pair nearly 40% of time. This flop i will check-raise on flop afraiding of higher card to come. If you were 3-betting flop than i can fold turn or call till river to remove overbluffing against me.