I won a big pot with a very silly hand... comments please!

[square444]

Another hand from my NL live game .50/.50 blinds $25 max buyin

I have about $30 in front of me and the relevant opponent has about $25.

He is on the button, I am directly to the right of him. Couple of limpers to me, and I look down and see
K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif . I raise to $2.50 (a standard preflop raise), and button reraises to $8.50. Everyone folds back to me, I am hesitant, but for some stupid reason I call.

Flop: 3 5 K rainbow.

I realize that I have a weak king, but I thought I'd take a stab at the pot anyway. I led out for $5 (which, in retrospect, was a very weak bet). He says, "I'm not a strong enough man..." and thinks for a second, and raises all in. Now I realize that in most cases weak means strong, etc. But against this particular opponent, it meant something else. We have a long history together, and we know each other's play pretty well. He usually says this when he has trouble letting go of a high pair. So, my first thought goes to AA. But if he had aces and I had a king, there would be no problem. He knows I would have reraised preflop with KK, so he can't be worried about that. I doubt he's worried about my flopping a set of trips, since he knows I have no trouble laying down (in most cases) 3's and 5's to a preflop reraise when I detect strength. He wouldn't expect me to call preflop with anything that could make two-pair with this board.

etc. etc. etc. I'm thinking about what he thought I had... and when I thought about that I was almost positive he held QQ. So I called.

We flip our cards, and he goes, "King TWO?" and gets a little angry.

I was right about his hand, but there was some possibility that I could have been up against a stronger king.

Was my play bad? In retrospect I don't think this kind of thing could possibly be profitable in the long run... but on the other hand I was almost SURE he had QQ. But I could have been wrong...

Comments please!
Peter M. Engelbert

[The Dude]

In LP with a couple of limpers ahead of you, it's okay to limp in with K2s (against the weak Party Poker field). Your money comes from good implied odds when you hit your flush. Your raise ruins your implied odds, so unless you expect to steal the pot right here (not going to happen for $2 more with limpers in front of you), raising is a bad move.

When your opponent comes over the top and nobody before you calls, you have to fold here. Calling with K2s is a horrible play here. This fold is much easier when you only limp in.

On the flop, you are betting $5 into a pot of around $18! If you're going to take a stab a the pot, it needs to be close to the size of the pot, which pretty much means you need to put your opponent all-in.

[ QUOTE ]
We have a long history together, and we know each other's play pretty well. He usually says this when he has trouble letting go of a high pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you trust your read on this player enough to make this call, great! A LOT of winning at NL is learning to read specific opponents. It turned out your call was good. In all honesty, though, every play until that point was wrong.

Keep posting, you'll get good feedback.

[square444]

Yeah, I knew my preflop call of his reraise was very stupid. I wasn't sure about my first raise though. So with this hand I should limp. Should I also call a small raise preflop with it in LP? Say, to $2.50?

I'm really sketchy on implied and pot odds. Is there any mention of implied odds in Hold'em for advanced players? I recently won the book (which is not cheap.......) in a poker game and am about to start reading it.

And the $5 bet into the $18 pot was... well, humorous (though not at the time. I get weak-hearted sometimes, which is very bad in NL poker.)

[ QUOTE ]
In all honesty, though, every play until that point was wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

In a weird way, that is what I like to hear. Not that I like playing bad, but I like people being honest with me when I'm playing badly.

[jakuda]

How many players were in this game?
Also how loose is this game. With several early limpers, do you expect them to fold to you? If not, then why raise?

Yes, and on the flop, if you want to lead at a bettor, $5 in that pot is too small, you're asking for a reraise since if he calls he's pot committed, so he might as well push it all in on that weak bet.

It's a good thing that you won, but making that preflop raise is a losing play.

[GrinningBuddha]

You didn't indicate what your preflop raise was meant to accomplish. If this game is tight enough that the raise will win the pot 75% of the time, then it's fine. Otherwise it's a very bad idea.

Calling the raise was a very bad idea. What hands do you hope to be in good shape against? Anything from 33-QQ has you drawing to 3 outs, AA has you in very bad shape and KK destroys you. AK is also a 3 out proposition, and AQ-AT give you 6 outs. All in all, very very bad news. You're getting 2-1 from the pot, not nearly enough to fool around here.

Good read on the flop, assuming it wasn't wishful thinking. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

You know you messed up, and I'm confirming it for you. Cheers!

[square444]

I guess with the preflop raise I was hoping to build a pot, I guess. Also I occasionally raise with a hand like Kxs to mix up my play. And I was experimenting. In these games I occasionally try a few quirky things to "experiment," to see if I can win a pot without a hand. Occasionally I'll preflop raise with 27o or some other shitty hand just to see if I can "outplay" someone with a better hand.

I know this is losing poker, but I like to practice things like this to work on my reading and betting skills. (Clearly I need a lot of work on the betting).

Thanks for the comments, I'll remember them!

[jakuda]

You don't need to build a pot in NL. Also building a pot is for when you have a good hand and you want to make as much money as possible.
In this game of yours, are your opponents that bad? Otherwise, you're going to win a small pot or lose a big one b/c they'll just make the correct play and call you if you snag a little of the flop.

[ML4L]

Hey square,

If you think the limpers will fold and/or that you will take the pot down on the flop with a bet, the preflop raise is OK.

Calling the reraise is an absolute crime.

On the flop, if you think the bet will give you 100% reliable information about his hand, I suppose it's OK. I would probably tend to check, and then decide what to do based on his bet and my read after he makes it.

If you are almost positive about your read of QQ, calling his all-in really isn't even a question...

ML4L

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
You didn't indicate what your preflop raise was meant to accomplish. If this game is tight enough that the raise will win the pot 75% of the time, then it's fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey. Welcome to my 'read every word he types list' too.

I was thinking about these success rate raises preflop, in many games the preflop raises after limpers do have enough success rate, so i was thinking of which hands to add to increase my preflop raising.

While TT - AA AQ are a must. AJ unraised LP. I was thinking which others to add. Of course, the more i add the less the success rate will be and, the hands i add should be the strongest of out the remaining hands, without being trouble hands.

So the best hands to add are the 66 - 99 pocket pairs, in LP.

So my question is, even if this raise (the K2s) does have a success rate of 75% is it still worth doing?

I think not since.

1. You lose stealing equity on better hands, (flipside, you gain value on hands).

2. The NL nature of the ratio of money going in postflop, that's awful for this hand, i.e. easy dominated.

So a kinda of, 'yes it's profitable in this hand right now, but the after effect, could make it not worth it).

[Dov]

Nothing silly about it. You read him right and acted accordingly. The only thing is, you don't want him to know about his tell.

[Dov]

Sorry, I answered before reading the rest of the thread.

I thought you were asking about the end of the hand because you already acknowledged that you didn't like calling the raise.