Is this is good default line?

[Tommy Angelo]

Artichoke $15-30. Seven handed. The game just started 15 minutes ago and so far we'd been playing with no house drop so already I was kinda giddy.

First player limped. Two others called. I was in the big blind with 44 and checked. The flop came J-10-2, all clubs. I had the four of clubs.

The small blind checked, I checked, and the first limper bet. He's the type who is just as likely to bet out with a draw or a pair. All folded around to me and that's when the decision-making portion of the hand pretty much came to an end. I decided, as I very often do in this situation, to call his bet on the flop, and then check-call the hand all the way no matter what came on the turn or river, with the possible exception of a feel-based check-fold on the river if no club came.

What about folding for one bet on the flop? And if that's not allowed (and checkraising is forbidden as well!) do you have a routine way of playing or thinking in this situation?


Tommy

[Pipedream]

I would routinely fold in this spot for a single bet on the flop. You're sucking wind a huge portion of the time. Wait for better opportunities to put your chips in the pot.

Pipedream

[gaylord focker]

I think it's close, but maybe folding on the flop is the play. Once in a while, when heads up with an aggresive player, I decide right on the flop that I'm check calling the hand down no matter what falls on the turn and river. I dont think your hand is quite strong enough for that here. The ten and the jack are such common cards for an ealry limper to hold, and you just cant count on the four of clubs to bail you out, because like you said, its very possible its no good. Assuming you check call on all streets, its going to cost you 5 small bets of your own to potentially win ten. Im not sure thats enough, but I think it's close enough to be player dependent.

That being said, I do agree that considering the player you described and with this particular board, if you do call the flop, you may as well down the rest of the hand. Since you really wont have much of an idea how far ahead or behind you are, you wouldnt want to psych yourself out on the turn or river if something ugly fell, since it may have missed him completely. Hope you won.

[Inthacup]

Hands like this feel more like 'Pin the tail on the donkey' than poker.

I might call down, I might fold. Considering that the game is new and I don't have a line on anyone, I'd probably fold it. Ask me the same question after 3-4 hours, and my response may be different.


Cup

[leon]

Tommy, I think folding on the flop for one bet is just fine. Even if he's on a draw, every draw he can have has two overcards to your pair. Add to that the fact that you might already be way behind, and you'll never know if your hand is good, and it's an easy dump. If you think about it, check calling all the way down here is remarkably close to how a calling station would play it, albeit for different reasons.

Leon

[Noo Yawk]

Hi Tommy,
These are what I call "pride situations". I know I have nothing but my blind invested, but I'll be damned if I'll let this guy steal this small pot from me. In my heart I know it's an easy fold. I may or may not be behind, but likely am. Even if my hand improves, it's not all that likely it's going to win anyway.
Fold. One more blind to go and you've got the button. Now you can bet when they check to you.

[andyfox]

I have more interest in the pattern mapping habits of the Siberian praying mantis than I do in this pot. I can see no reason to invest any money into a J-T-2 flop with 2 fours, I don't care if both of my fours are clubs. And as little interest as I have in calling on the flop, I have a thousand times less interest in continuing to check-call when I need only threes and twos to come on both the turn and the river in order for there not to be more overcards.

My routine way of thinking is that A) I was fortunate to get a free play, I like a game with a lot of limping, there'll be lots more opportunities that are better than this one; B) no 4 or 6-5-3 came; C) they all folded, increasing the chances that the bettor does indeed have a club; D) I don't know what this guy has and therefore would have no way of knowing if, for example, an eight of diamonds or an Ace of spades or a 3 of clubs was a good or bad card for me and E) they haven't taken a drop yet, why not get in a few more hands where I have a chance to have better cards or a better flop or better position, or better yet, some combination of these against these limping limpers?

This hand ranks at the bottom rung of the matrix for me.

[Ulysses]

I'd fold this for one flop bet because I have a pair of fours and guys who limp often do so with cards like tens and jacks in their hand, both of which happen to be on the board. And I'm not a big fan of drawing to 4-high flushes.

[Zeno]

It would be hard to add anything to what has been already said especially after Andy's post. But I had a few thoughts while reading about your quandary - Song Titles. They are imbedded in your post, like small gems flashing in the mud. To wit:


[ QUOTE ]
no house drop

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I was kinda giddy.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I had the four of clubs.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
default line?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am kinda giddy just thinking about the poker stories and fun word play Tommy A could conjure up and put to a reggae beat.

-Zeno

[JTG51]

Tommy, can you say a little more about this:

[ QUOTE ]
I decided, as I very often do in this situation, to call his bet on the flop, and then check-call the hand all the way no matter what came on the turn or river, with the possible exception of a feel-based check-fold on the river if no club came.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that imply that once you chose this line of play the only way you will fold is if a club does not come, and you will always call if a club does come? Intuitively it seems that should be reversed and you will only fold if a club does come since you think he has a pair or a draw. Am I misunderstanding you? Do you, like usual, have a different view of the situation that I don't yet understand?

For what it's worth, I'd fold on the flop. The times that he's ahead, you are drawing very slim. The times that you are ahead he's likely got enough outs to make him a favorite, or close to it.

[AJo Go All In]

it's hard for me to believe that this is actually how you would play this hand.

my guess is, either you were sweating a friend who played 44 this way, or your nut flush got called down by 44, or some variation thereof.

[nykenny]

Tommy,

both J & T are in limping zone in a typical 15-30 game. so the limper could have. if he doesn't have J or T he could have something like 78, 89, Q9, KQ, K9, 79, Q8... all of these non-clubbed hands have about at least 7 outs on you, some as many as 10 outs. if those hands were clubbed, then they have as many as 18 outs on you. if he is paired (J or T), then you have 11 outs agsint them, but still an underdog.

all in all, most of the time, you will be in pretty bad shape. also bad position.

i would give up.

Kenny

[JTG51]

I misread the flop and thought you said there were two clubs, not three, so I take back everything I said.

Sorry about that.

[Monkeyslacks]

First of all, Tommy's rule #1: Fold the blinds, I like position.

Second:
a) If he's got a pair with no club, you've a 40% chance to take the pot.

b) If he's got no pair, but a big club with two overcards, you've a 30-40% chance to take the pot.

If these were the only possibilities, I'd say call it down. Even more so if you can save the river bet when no club falls. Obviously, this requires being able to tell if you're behind. Something I wouldn't count on being able to do without position, but Tommy may.

c) What turns this into a definite fold is the big club with a pair category. A /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif etc. They're likely and you're drawing near dead to them (7-10%).

Bye fours. Next time we'll flop a set...

[mike l.]

i really must not know how to play this game. because i know you do tommy. and i would never ever waste my time going further w/ 44 in this scenario. so i guess we're all just missing something.

i dont see how this can be right and good play for me, or for you, or for anyone.

[Ray Zee]

well angelo since i am coming your way i hope soon, and can get some of your live money i wont tell you to fold as i wouldnt eitherhere. call him then check raise on the turn. he might go south. if not check and call on the river if you dont hit a club. bet if you do. you have a flush dont you.

[Clarkmeister]

Tommy,

I've posted several hands about nearly this exact situation and while this pot is about 2sb smaller than I'd like, I think the best default line is the one you described.

[MarkD]

Why 2 sb's?

I must admit this hand posted by Tommy and agreed upon by Ray and yourself has me completely baffled and mystified.

I don't think I understand it at all.

[mike l.]

"I don't think I understand it at all."

i think i got a handle on it. it goes:

tommy, ray, clark: "we play so well and win so much that we have gaping horrid high flux leaks like this 44 in the bb thing in our game, but we still cant help but make 6 figures a year at the ol' mid limit hold em games."

or something like that.

[ike]

you're just jealous you can't profitably call down with underpairs

[Depraved]

I'd just fold this hand on the flop. Calling all the way seems weak and foolish.

Not only will you possibly be drawing to a second best flush, but two overcards with one club has over a 50% of winning the hand anyway. Any better pair has over a 50% chance of winning. You won't have the correct odds to call with your flush draw on the turn. That's just the best case scenario, and you'll have to pay off the river with a lot of losing hands. It will be hard to improve and improve reliably so you can collect.

This hand just sucks IMO.

[Matt Flynn]

Don't forget to adjust for the environment. For Lucky Chances, fine. For AJ's you should also check-raise the river then tip $5.

Have fun guys.

Matt

[Benn Eubank]

Hi Ray,

Is it possible for you to give us bay area residents a heads-up on when and where you might be playing? Unless you're playing 3-6, we may not actually cross swords, but it would be great to watch you from a good spot on the rail.

Cheers, Benn.

[Vehn]

I think this is the pattern mapping thread of the mid stakes forum.

[mike l.]

"you're just jealous you can't profitably call down with underpairs'

that must be it. i used to be able to. the whole idea just seems like nonsense to me now.

[stripsqueez]

i'm morally opposed to check calling all the way heads up - it smacks of being too scared to decide if your in front - compromise is nearly always wrong

you play in a casino called the artichoke ??

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Monkeyslacks]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is the pattern mapping thread of the mid stakes forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it isn't, it should be...

[Losing all]

Hmmm, I'd never play this like this, but that probably makes it right.

I can't see where it's +ev on this hand, but it has huge future implications (when playing players like me) and you did say this was early in the game.

#1 I'd think twice about semi bluffing you.

#2 I'd probably put you on being a fish, bad read, +ev there.

#3 If you do win, you win+ you possibly put the "better hand" on tilt.

I don't read this board a lot, and rarely reply, but this one has got me thinking..

Am I correct in assuming this is more of a psychological ploy than a winning play(on this hand?) And if so, do you show when you lose?? I'm probably way off base, but it sounds good to me.

[bilyin]

How about betting out on the flop to see how others react? They might all fold. If someone calls or raises, try to get a read what hand he is doing it with and act accordingly.

[Depraved]

I'm very inclined to choose this approach over check calling since it does give you more ways to win. I'd still prefer check folding though since if anyone calls your bet on the flop, you'll usually have to give it up on the turn anyway - it's too hard to know if your hand is the best here or if your opponent is on a draw where he will fold.

[Ray Zee]

ben, i think i may fly into s.f. monday morning and play at lucky chances mostly for a week or two. thats the current plan right now. i should be around the big no limit game when it is going.

[Benn Eubank]

Got it. I appreciate you replying, hope you have a fun trip and best of luck that the real fish are biting.

Cheers, Benn.

[Tommy Angelo]

I played all day yesterday, man I am so back in the groove!

So I'm reading through this thread, and 100 posts in row say it's an autofold on the flop, and I'm thinking, man, I'm glad I posted this hand. I've got a huge and easily pluggable leak. And here comes Ray and Clarky to say I played it fine, and I'm like, wow, Ray. Once before he said I didn't totally suck and I was high for a week. (Nothing against you clarky!) lol

My final conclusion on this hand is that this is a really really good and deep sample case of the-decisions-that-trouble-us-most-are-the-ones-that-matter-least. But I'm still not folding on the flop.

Tommy

[andyfox]

I've read Ray's post a few times and I still can't decide if he's kidding or not. I think he's kidding. But what do I know, I'm a pattern-mapping, seven-betting idiot.

But I'm still not calling on that flop.

Love,
Andy

[gaylord focker]

Phew, I was just starting to feel stupid because I couldnt tell if Ray was kidding either. That whole, "you have a flush dont you" thing seems a bit suspicious.

[ACPlayer]

I think Ray may be setting up a future play here!

Interesting thread.

Against an aggressive better who's perception of you as a folder allows him to keep firing, a call down maybe warranted.

I liked and take to heart something TA said in an earlier thread of pacifying his opposition.

[Monkeyslacks]

I also took it as a tongue-in-cheek...

[MMMMMM]

If you can read the guy pretty much like a book and you think you're ahead, go ahead and call. If you can't, I think a fold is in order.

There are many ways to lose even if you are currently ahead--not to mention the ghastly specter of being up against a higher pair AND a higher club (there are many combinations to which you are drawing pretty much dead).

The later streets are 'harder' calls than the flop;-) and the pot really isn't very large yet, so my intuition is that the pot size doesn't make up for the playing disadvantages of your hand. Also, there is really nothing you can hit that would enable you to jam the pot.

[Monkeyslacks]

[ QUOTE ]
There are many ways to lose even if you are currently ahead

[/ QUOTE ]

What could you put his opponent on that he is ahead of?

[Ray Zee]

okay guys i will be a little less unclear then. five people took the flop. so if you call all the way out you get two to one for your money. you still think its a clear fold. or are you folding because your hand isnt big enough to feel comfortable putting money in with?
plus maybe you can save some if a bad card comes. also this is assuming the player is one who could have many hands or nothing but a draw. against much of that you are a small dog or a favorite. if he has a bigger pair and a club you are in deep doo doo. but that is what is called gambling. you take risks.
when i said bet out on the end you have a flush when another club comes. you are the favorite to have the best hand and likely to get called. why not bet.
for the most part most of these type of spots are folds. but money makers other times when you can see through the mist. plus again they have a hard time playing against you when they find you looking them up.
tommy plays well enough to make money with this hand, unless of course its me he is against /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
okay guys i will be a little less unclear then. five people took the flop. so if you call all the way out you get two to one for your money. you still think its a clear fold. or are you folding because your hand isnt big enough to feel comfortable putting money in with?
plus maybe you can save some if a bad card comes. also this is assuming the player is one who could have many hands or nothing but a draw. against much of that you are a small dog or a favorite. if he has a bigger pair and a club you are in deep doo doo. but that is what is called gambling. you take risks.
when i said bet out on the end you have a flush when another club comes. you are the favorite to have the best hand and likely to get called. why not bet.
for the most part most of these type of spots are folds. but money makers other times when you can see through the mist. plus again they have a hard time playing against you when they find you looking them up.
tommy plays well enough to make money with this hand, unless of course its me he is against /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Exhibit A why Ray is #1 in the Clark poster power rankings. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MMMMMM]

If the opponent has any two high cards with a club he is the favorite even if he doesn't have pair and even though the pocket 4's are currently ahead.

I just now read a couple of other responses. I can see Ray's points and I don't think calling is very bad but I still favor folding unless I feel I can read the guy. It seems the kind of play you do against someone whom you can read better than they can read you, or against someone whom you have some control over. If the opponent is tough or if both of you are pretty unreadable I don't really like it because the times you are buried you are really buried. Maybe it's close overall or even favoring the call when you crunch all the numbers, but it's not my style unless I am trying to stop someone from running over me.

[JimRivett]

Tommy can you hear me,

Check call,
Check call,
Check call,

does not make a winning poker stragedy.

Regards,
Jim

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
does not make a winning poker stragedy.


[/ QUOTE ]

Or perhaps a stragedy is exactly what that is.

[andyfox]

"maybe you can save some if a bad card comes."

What would be a good card?

[andyfox]

"I don't think calling is very bad but I still favor folding unless I feel I can read the guy."

I dont' see what there is to read here. He's got position on you. He could have, according to the orginial post, almost anything. Ray says you might e able to save some if a bad card comes. But I can't tell what a bad card would be here. The only good cards I can think of are non-club 2s or 3s. Ray aid youre'a favorite to have the best hand is a club comes on the end, but it seems to me that's only the case in a theoretical case; since the guy bet into four opponents, I'd fear the doo doo.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
do you have a routine way of playing or thinking in this situation?


[/ QUOTE ]

No. Should I?

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
...plus again they have a hard time playing against you when they find you looking them up.
tommy plays well enough to make money with this hand,...

[/ QUOTE ]

Master Ray.

[MMMMMM]

By "read the guy" I mean if he's a weak enough player that I can pretty reliably sense if he likes a card or not.

Yes, the fact that he bet into several opponents does display some strength. Also, the fact that you won't know where you are as the hand progresses weighs against the call.

All in all I don't like the call but I've probably done it a couple of times.

Of course there's the "close your eyes and hang on as the money goes in" approach which I find myself doing more and more online. Sure does make a limit play bigger though.

[andyfox]

"they have a hard time playing against you when they find you looking them up"

I love it when the look me up. They can call all day long with pocket fours on that flop when I bet into 4 opponents. They can have their 2 to 1.

[andyfox]

"i used to be able to. the whole idea just seems like nonsense to me now."

You never were able to. You made an ooh-and-aah call down every now and then and remembered it. You forgot about all the losses.

You know why it seems like nonsense to you now? Because it is. All the others folded, so none of them had a jack and probably none of them had a ten either. And you don't. Sure seems more likely the bettor does. Alternatively, all of them had at least one non-club, raising the odds that the bettor doesn't have one non-club.

Unless it's Mr. Zee or Mr. Angelo, and those cats are few and far between, how can you not love it when they call you with pocket 4s on a Jc-Tc-2c board when you lead into four opponents?

[James282]

On some hannds, it is absolutely correct to check-call the entire way. If no situation warrants this play for you, you have a leak in your game.
-James

[Tommy Angelo]

"how can you not love it when they call you with pocket 4s on a Jc-Tc-2c board when you lead into four opponents?"

Is there any opponent on earth against whom it would be correct to call the flop bet?

Before you say no, how about a guy who would bet the flop on any two cards, and then check behind all the way if it came down to heads up?

Somewhere between him, and you and me (players against whom it would definitely and always be wrong to call our flop) exists the guy I played this hand against. My only point here is that if my play at the time was wrong, it can only be wrong because of the how the opponent plays, and not because the call was inherently wrong. Agree or no? In other words, the fact that you or I would like to be called by 44 in this spot is irrelevant, right?


Tommy

[Coilean]

Well, put me in the minority on this one; I think calling it down is fine. I'd run some numbers, but Ray has already covered what I was thinking (although I might try to induce a bluff by checking the river if another club comes, rather than betting out). I'll only add that the killer scenario where you face a bigger pair with a bigger club is made less likely because, unless he's betting a pocket underpair himself (or limps with big pairs preflop), at least one of his cards isn't a club if you are behind (and both of them aren't clubs if he made 2 pair or a set). So most of the time you have 11 outs with some possibility of the current best hand.

I'll also state the obvious, since no one else has: clearly this is only a play because Tommy stumbled into a heads up scenario. Nine time out of 10 you would wind up folding here because someone else called ahead of you, or there were players yet to act behind you. As always, profit to the vigilant, and peace of mind to the unwary.

[elysium]

hi tommy
good follow-up post to mason's greatest post of all time, coming from the man who made the biggest lay-down in history. i just can't see the guy who folded AA pre-flop not folding here, unless this opponent is the type of opponent who would make the most perplexing, record breaking reconsideration of all time, and fold if you raised, or allowed you to see the river for free after the flop.

if you feel up to it tommy, and somehow win this hand by showing down, it would be the whooptiest doozie of the century, no....millennium. century, millennium take your pick.

[Phat Mack]

Is there any opponent on earth against whom it would be correct to call the flop bet?

Before you say no, how about a guy who would bet the flop on any two cards, and then check behind all the way if it came down to heads up?


Does he know that if he bets a scare flop, you will call him down (heads up) with a pair of 4's? If so, he'll only check it down with you if he has you beat. Otherwise he'll make you make a decision.

[Andy B]

It isn't often that I bust out laughing while reading this board, but this was above average.

[Clarkmeister]

Bump. Not really the same situation as mike l's, but similar.

[etizzle]

I, too, laughed out loud.