Guy, you should love this!... take it down w/ 83, but it was sooted!!

[fsuplayer]

NLHE Party $25 Table
A couple mins after sitting down I get dealt 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the SB, five or six limpers, so I toss in my quarter and check out a flop.
10 /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
I check and BB makes it $3 to go, im thinking fold but then see 3 callers (gotta love party) and I have a op. ended st. draw, so I call. Pot $17 or so.
Turn: 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
I check, BB goes all in for about $7 more (again im thinkin g fold, two others fold, but to my suprise, LP calls. Pot $31 and I have 9 flush outs and 7 more straight outs. Pot odds, right?
Now I know that all my outs my not be clean, but the BB all-in and the LP flat call looked more like top pair or maybe 2pair. And a higher flush draw could have been out there, but by the calling of LP w/o the correct pot odds, I didnt think a higher fl. draw was out there.
River: 7d
I make my flush and my mistake(?) in the hand and go for a check raise and it fails, he checks and I take it down and BB berates me for my play, but then again he had mid pair on the flop.Was it that bad?
I made get critized for the preflop call, but after that I played it well on the flop and river right?
Thanks in advance for the help.
Fsuplayer
ps One more suited hand.
Same game a little later.
Poor player makes a raise to two (seen him raise with QJo and the like), so I call with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Flop: 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif Beautiful right?
Raiser bets $4, I raise to $10 on my monster draw.
He goes all in for $35 more. I called in a heart beat and caught the K on the turn to complete my straight.
Again, mean comments on the play. What do you think?

[Paul2432]

On the first hand, I'd say your pre-flop call was marginal. Other than that I'd say you played it fine, although I would sometimes move all-in myself on the turn.

On the second hand everything looks good. I might consider raising a little more on the flop though, perhaps to $20 or so to give him something to think about.

Paul

[lowroller]

Unfortunately I'm fairly new to poker, so I can't comment on your hand play. However, there is something in your post I don't quite understand.

And a higher flush draw could have been out there, but by the calling of LP w/o the correct pot odds, I didnt think a higher fl. draw was out there.

If my thinking is correct, there is $38 in the pot ($31 + your $7 call) and LP needs to call for $7 as well. Isn't LP getting better than 5:1 on his flush draw, and all he needs is a tad better than 4:1(9 outs)??

So isn't he getting correct odds to call? No sarcasm here, I am really trying to see if I am missing something.

Thanks and Good Luck!

[Paul2432]

When calculating pot odds you do not include your bet. The pot odds are (amount in pot:amount to call). In this particular situation, the hero had not yet called, so there was only $24 in the pot and the bet was $7 so he getting about 3.4:1 odds. If he knew for sure the hero was calling, then he would be getting 31:7 or about 4.4:1 odds.

Paul

[Guy McSucker]

Hey fsuplayer,

You're right I love it!

Preflop: well I can hardly criticise the call with 8-3 suited can I? /images/graemlins/smile.gif The only thing I would say is that you're not closing the betting: the BB might raise and you will have to fold. But, this is reasonably rare in most party games, and its only 25c if it does happen, so you might like to ignore this point.

After that, pot odds tie you to the pot, no question. It is less likely than usual that the LP player has a diamond draw, because that draw was not available on the flop. Had two diamonds flopped, his flat call there and again on the turn would look pretty flushy. Here there's no reason to suspect this. He might be on the same straight draw, though.

On the turn: one post mentioned that a raise might be in order. I don't think that's a good idea, because you'll be building a side-pot against just one player who is almost surely ahead of you, whatever his cards are. You have 15 outs, if they're all clean, which is a lot, but this guy doesn't seem to be about to fold and 15 is less than half the deck, so don't build an even-money side-pot. I like the call.

With the ace-ten, hmmm. I am not sure about the size of the flop raise. There are three possibilities:

- He folds. This is fine. But for $6 more it's unlikely.

- He moves you in. That's fine too. You're probably a slight underdog in that case but you don't mind gambling here.

- He calls, and then bets all-in on the turn. This is fine if you hit the turn (!) but you'll have to fold otherwise.

I don't think he'll fold for the $6, so your raise will either get you all-in right now, which is okay, or mean you're paying an additional $6 to see one card only, which is bad.

I think a bigger raise, say to $20, is better. There's more chance he folds, and if not, you are committed to the pot. If he just calls, pretend your bet was an all-in move, don't look at the turn card, and call his bet. Your odds are fine.

Guy.

[lowroller]

Paul,

Thanks for your reply. I got the positioning of the calls messed up and now realize that the LP was second to act in that round instead of last.

[Fistdantilus]

I think that people saying "don't play with that garbage" are simply reciting dogma they heard before.

You had the odds in each hand, but sometimes you'll get beat big because your draws are so low. If you accept some higher variance, I say go for it. The other day I lost close to $300 in a night simply because my draws hit and were beaten out by better draws... but the next day I made it back in literally 20 minutes by playing "bad" cards. Gotta love party.

Fistdantilus

[tewall]

On hand one, you should be +EV playing it the way you did, but by less than you might think. I think folding pre-flop would be fine. It depends on your outlook on variance.

On the second hand, I agree absolutely with the posters that said to raise to 20 or so. If you are called, and miss, you can be put under a great deal of pressure on the turn.