Flopped Trips. Fold??

2 hands from a late night 4-8 at Muckleshoot Casino outside Seattle, WA. Game tonight has been extrememly straightforward. A few free card raises, but mostly people betting when they think they are best, people calling with draws or marginal made hands and OK, let's see the winner. I flopped trips twice in a short period and am curious if people would have played them any differently.


1. I am in BB with 9c2c. I think 5 of us saw the flop for one bet. Flop is 9d9h4d. I check, early position player bets, folded to the button who raises. I checkraise (3 bets), early position player now caps. Button folds. I call. I was planning on checkraising this flop no matter what but I did not expect it to come back to me 2 bet. Still, my hand is not that great and I wanted to see how strong the others were. I felt if I bet then someone with a good 9 might just call (slowplaying), as would some diamond draws, fours and other pairs, and I would not know where I stood going into the turn. Now I believe the button must have had a middle pair or diamonds (see was a good player) but I think that the early position player has me beat.


Would anyone check-fold the turn here? Is my hand good enough to pay 2 more BB?


2. I am in early position and limp with QsJs. This is way on the bottom of my starting hands but I have been in this game for about 2 hours and very few pots have been raised. I am up quite a bit and maybe I just felt like gambling a bit. Criticize it if you want. 5 of us see the flop for one bet. Flop is QcQd9d. I bet out, middle position player calls, one other caller downstream. 3 handed going into the turn. Turn is 3c. I bet again, middle position player raises, player behind folds, I 3 bet, he caps. I huddle for a second. This is an older man who I have not seen raise with anything but a very strong hand. I can beat only QT or Q8 or lower. Would he limp in with those? He has not shown down much so I am unsure. QJ and we split, I lose to Q9, KQ, AQ, 99.


Does anyone fold here? Is this hand worth 2 more BB?


Thanks in advance.


KJS

1. I wouldn't just check fold the turn, the pot is fairly big and even if you're outkicked you still have a few outs to the whole pot or half. It really depends on the players in the hand. There are times where I wouldn't be too happy with my holding, yet against some opponents I would be drooling at the potential action.


2. This one seems like a rough spot. I know this may sound like odd strategy but you might want to call and then fold on the river unless you improve. If he's a super rock you can fold pretty safely and actually have several (7) outs if he holds 99. Also another thing that might happen is that if he has a hand you can beat he might check behind you on the river.

There's a saying that goes: "when you flop a set and lose, if you didn't lose a lot of chips you probably played it wrong."


I might play QJs early position, too. Something like that I might also have raised instead of limped pre-flop, depending on how it all felt at the time. Would have released if I got reraised maybe, who knows.


You flopped a set, so probably got the best of it. Make 'em pay. Save your late-night worries for crap like 99.

"There's a saying that goes: "when you flop a set and lose, if you didn't lose a lot of chips you probably played it wrong."


Hey Gomez, flopping a set and flopping trips, is not the same thing. While both are 3 of a kind, with a set, no-one else can have the same hand (as two of the three are in your hand). With trips, two are on the board, and can be shared by anyone with the case card (the fourth of that rank).


thus KJS's dilemma, very possible kicker problems.

He flopped trips not a set. You're only supposed to lose a lot with sets. It is much easier for flopped trips to be behind, especially with a 2 kicker.


If you are going to play QJs early, you should probably only call. You want a multiway pot. You want to know if you are dominated, and allow dominated hands to play. If you raise, the only hands that dominate you that might fold are KJo, KQo, and AJo. And they MIGHT fold, in a 4-8 it is a real stretch. If you only call, hands like, J-10, Q-T, J9s, etc... will come in behind you. If someone raises behind you, it says there is a good chance you are dominated so beware if you flop a pair. If you raise, hands like AJs, AQ, KQs will often just call. They will raise if you limp so you know where you stand.


Raising and then folding to a reraise? Never. Maybe if it is 2 back to you, but the only way you have odds to fold for 1 more after you raise with QJs is if your opponent flips over exactly QQ before you call. Even that is probably not a fold since you have good straight/flush implied odds. You are getting AT LEAST 5.5-1, usually more, when reraised. Why in God's name would you fold? I guess if you know you are going to screw it up on later streets you can fold, but then why play it or raise in the first place?


Back to the point at hand...


Hand 1: You are basically screwed. Maybe you could only call the raise on the flop instead of check-raising and then lead the turn. This would be more helpful in knowing if you are ahead and prevents a free card. Otherwise I have no idea what is correct.


Hand 2: The cap on the turn is bad for you. If this player is rockish then why 3-bet the turn? Doesn't his raise alone mean he probably has you beat? If he is capable of semibluffing then you get the extra bet anyway when he misses. For instance if he raises with a flush draw on the turn, you call, and he misses, he is probably betting the river near 100% of the time because the pot is large. If you reraise and he misses, he will fold on the river when you bet, so you still win the same number of bets, but you lose more when he does catch. You have 3-7 outs, so I don't see how you can fold the turn for the 4th bet. Folding on the river is close. It depends on the player. The pot is big, so calling can't be too bad. Just don't 3-bet the turn in the first place. You can always lead on the river. He is less likely to raise this even if he is ahead because it looks like you just improved when you do this. He is more likely to call with something marginal, however, because it also looks like you could be bluffing. In general, people take the option that allows them to call.

One thing about playing in a straightforward game *should* be the ease of making good laydowns when someone shows you they have the goods. In both of these hands I had a very strong feeling that I was beat. I poured it on in both cases and got played back at. I must learn to act on that information.


In hand 1. I was preparing to check-fold on the turn, but...I paired my kicker. He had A9. I hit a 3 outer. I don't think this one would have been that hard to muck if I didn't hit on the turn.


In hand 2. I paid him off. He had Q9. I like Glenn's idea of calling the raise and check-calling the river. That's 3BB after the flop. My way cost me 5. Plus, if I am behind I get a cheaper look at the river where I could hit a J (or 9 for split). Thanks Glenn.


KJS