AA again, or training the table - long

Okay, I took a stance in an AA thread a week or so ago about the value of AA in a loose low limit game stating that it was not imo, a great hand to be dealt. I supported this supposition with the idea that other hands pay off better judging from my own experience with AA.


Since then I played AA real time in TTH and also in two live sessions. I decided to play AA -> ATs with appropriate aggressiveness to the river in most situations unless it was clear to me that my hand was a hands down dog. I can only speak to AA, I need to do some tuning with the AJ - ATs as I tend to overplay them. Not taking off the blinders, but simply betting and calling to the flop, AA lived up to my expectations. AA was averaging $.88 each time I played it. For a second and third run in TTH, I started playing very aggresssively with AA, betting and raising as much as possible unless it was very clear I was beaten. My average AA profit soared to over $11.00 each time I played it! Okay, time for the real world.


Two sessions later, and the results are rather interesting, here is what I am observing:


1. The loosest players who like to limp through the round decide quickly that it gets expensive to play with me when I raise preflop. They are [mostly] dropping preflop or flop instead of chasing, albeit they are not having fun doing it - ohhh geee. Tonight for example I was referred to - very quietly of course as a Pr!6k and a F&^%% A$$^&** for raising preflop with premium hands. You get the picture, it must be a more effective play with proper training and consistancy than I could have imagined. These comments from two players who play a very good loose game. They are seeing parts of their game shut down and they don't like it. Their donating to me some of their chips helped me to feel much better about those colorful observations. LOL


2. Average (for the table) players, decided quickly it's pretty expensive going past the flop with me as it's almost certain I have top pair, and they don't.


3. Watching a choice pot getting pushed to another player is painful, ie, one player heads up tripping up 66 on the river and he suddenly holds the nuts.... Oh the agony. But new bluffing opportunities are more than making up for it.


4.The huge lost pots at first didn't seem worth the winnings, until I changed my perspective. I was counting what I won verses whole pots I lost, rather than what AA cost me to play it, and what AA is winning for me per hand.


AA in my two recent sessions, is payed off pretty well, averaging about $20.00 a hand for five tries so far. Once I changed my focus to AA investments verses AA profits, a whole new picture has evolved. I think I really like AA! So what if AA loses some huge pots, it seems to win at a rather nice rate of pay over the long term.


5. AA appears to be mostly immune to either a single or two obsessive calling stations at the table. They may get a hand here and there, but they all lose in the long run.


6. Double clutching is sometimes required. I find I can selectively bluff more, but I throw part of my win back enticing the table to play with me. A large number of players at my table spend a good portion of their week playing HE so they are not bad players overall.


So, the moral of my story? In the future when am dealt AA - most of the time I will be throwing money in the pot with both hands as AA will pay me back nicely for proper play! I found that if you are at all conservative with your chips in AA play, ie, cheaply seeing what the flop brings like I _used_ to do, AA won't treat you very well. Extreme chip aggressiveness and consistancy is almost always the key to proper table training when holding AA.


Standard disclaimer - This is only my opinion with a few real world samples. But I now believe I was wrong both in my opinion and my play of AA. Your mileage will probably vary at your table(s).


My thanks to those who were so adamant about AA and shared their opinions!

Beware of trying to cme to conclusions in poker based on just a few days worth of observations. The long run is so damn long it almost seems ridiculous.

Moral: Aces are the biggest money winner in ANY holdem game.

It feels good to help a fellow 2+2er. Mike and I sent a few e-mails to each other after the 10/23 "Playing in wild loose games" post in which the recent big AA debate was fought. It was interesting to work through different ideas even if I was essentially unmovable on my position.


Got AA? Raise for VALUE! Raise for VALUE! Raise for VALUE!

The traded emails helped a lot. I just had to find why it payed off you and Dave so well, but not me. What I found was the way we play here which is loose standards preflop, flop and then see what happens. It was a bad habit to fall into, but makes nice pots when you win.


At first preflop raising with premium hands didn't seem to have any effect. Then I noticed they started respecting raises a little more and some were folding more often than the hours before. I attribute that to the fact they were dropping 2 - 4 SB preflop and flop before folding and it was starting to hurt the bottom line.


Then it dawned on me the players were getting trained, and as long as I was consistant there was some bluffing action to be had.


Getting sworn at was the capper! I knew I was hurting their game to the benifit of mine. Two all ready very loose players tilting last night was amazing. One bled off about three hundred plus in a little over an hour. He was trying to punish me by coming raising on almost every hand! The other went broke in about forty minutes and left steaming.


It is a lot more comfortable way to play as I didn't have to spend so much time deciding what the remaining players might be holding. Now where are those junk card players.....

I agree, AA must be played very aggressively. I had an (in retrospect) amusing incident involving this the last time I played: I was dealt KK under the gun and raised, to my chagrin everyone folded and all I got was a "lousy" four bucks. Then about an hour later I got AA under the gun. Remembering what happened with the Kings, I just called instead of raising, not wanting to win "only" 4 bucks again. Of course a bunch of people called after me, and I got drawn out on. Instead of maybe winning 4 bucks, I lost about 30. To me, the moral of the story is that even though KK and AA are rare hands, they are still just a pair, that's all. So you really need to concentrate on knocking people out preflop. Trying to "lure people in" is incorrect when all you have (so far, anyway) is a pair, top pair though it may be. I had this same experience later on when I neglected to reraise with JJ preflop. I flat called the raise, and one of the guys who called after me won with K-10 offsuit. At least 90% of the time, I think not raising preflop with A-K, A-Q, AA-JJ (maybe even 10/10) is a sin. I know of course that "it depends", but most of the time this seems to be correct. If your early position raises are getting too much respect, I think the correct thing to do is start raising in the same spot with A-J and K-Q, etc., not limping with AA and KK, as has been sometimes suggested. (And yes, I have noticed this pisses people off. I think it's kind of amusing, personally).

Tim

I thought the swearing was rather funny, and I laughed out loud when I cracked the first one and sent them packing - not something I usually do, but they were acting so childish. The next time we play, I imagine they will still hold a grudge against me, and the tilt factor may kick in in their game.


After a lot of trying different 'images', I decided being myself works the best, I am usually having fun when I play, so it wasn't that far out of line. I usually smile when I win a pot, I'm happy, so why not?


FWIW, I used to get sworn at in stud about once every four or five sessions. Rarely happens to me in HE. You know you are doing well when you can feel the hate! LOL