A QQ hand - you guys should have fun with this one.

[Nottom]

Party Poker 3/6 (10 handed)
Nottom has Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif and is MP2

MP1 limps, Nottom raises, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB 3-bets, MP1 calls, Nottom caps, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls

Flop(20 SB): K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checks, BB bets, MP1 folds, Nottom calls, CO calls, SB folds

Turn(11 1/2 BB): A/images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB bets, Nottom calls, CO calls

River(14 1/2 BB): 3/images/graemlins/club.gif

BB bets, Nottom calls, CO folds

Enjoy!

[me454555]

Once that 2nd ace hits i think your drawing dead. I can't see him having any other hand than AA, KK, or AK. I think folding on the turn might be the best play

[Alobar]

for the love of god, raise the flop!! You might be behind, you might not, but your never going to know with out getting some info. That and don't give someone playing the gut shot or the flush draw cheap cards.

Turn, yuck, thats an ugly card....since you didnt raise the flop, its hard to tell if your beaten. I'm checking and calling

[Alobar]

Am I the only one that didn't get the memo, "your only allowed to raise from the blinds with AA KK or AK"?? I've read this in numerous threads, anytime there is a raise from the blind "it reeks of AA or KK".

[bdk3clash]

I like--or at least, appreciate--the way you played this hand on all streets. I guess capping with QQ preflop is player dependent, but it really does give you a ton of information--in this case, BB betting into you on the flop and the turn indicates he probably has a really, really good hand, or at least a hand he really, really likes.

Anyway, on the flop, raising could be bad for two reasons--it might drive out the CO, who is probably drawing incredibly thin, and it might trigger a 3-bet from the BB.

I probably would have raised the flop here just to see if the BB backed off or still came out guns blazing for the 3-bet and led the turn, but since the CO is sticking around, you're still collecting 2 SBs on the flop if you're ahead (BB's and CO's) and not losing 3 if you're behind to the BB's potential AA or KK.

The problem is, he'd play AK or AQ (and probably KQ, though that one is less likely to be 3-bet PF) the same way, so it's hard to know if you're missing bets or raising when you're behind. He isn't folding two-pair here, so it's hard to know what level of aggressiveness is warranted.

Had the turn not paired the A (or the K) I would have advocated raising and calling down if 3-bet. Even with a K, at least you're still beating AQ. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Anyway, onto the turn. I can't think of a hand that the BB would reasonably 3-bet preflop that you beat now. Obviously, hands you don't want BB to have are AA, KK, AQ, AK, all of which fit his play.

You'd love him to have AJ Ax, or KQ, or JT, but since he 3-bet preflop I find AA, KK, AQ, and AK more probable, and I don't think this is seeing monsters under the bed.

Nevertheless, given the chance that you might still be ahead and the pot size, folding would be retarded. Calling seems prudent, especially since you've got the added benefit of a potential overcall from the CO, which worked out.

Ditto on the river. Too bad the CO folded. There's an outside chance that the BB has something weird like Ax (AJ, AT maybe?) or got frisky with JTs because Vince Van Patten called it the best hand in hold'em, but I doubt it. Of course, he could have something completely ludicrous like 88, but I guess that's what "results" posts are for.

[me454555]

Our Hero capped pf, and the guy still bet into him on the flop before he even had a chance to check. That reeks of a made hand. When the 2nd ace falls, he bets again.

What kind of a hand would you 3-bet p/f and bet into a p/f capper on an AKQ flop? Lets see, JT for the flopped strait, unless hes a total maniac I dont see it. KQs, its a possiblility but since you got QQ, I doubt that. He can't have QQ b/c you have it and theres a queen on the board, so that really only leaves us AA, KK, or AK. I'm going to rule out JJ b/c you capped pf and I don't think he would bet into you with an underpair. On the turn your behind all of them so why not fold?

I'd probably raise the flop and fold to a 3-bet.

[Clarkmeister]

I'd raise the flop, but calling the turn and river is just fine.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably raise the flop and fold to a 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? You'd really fold to a 3-bet on this flop? Wouldn't AK, AQ, and KQ 3-bet this flop as well? Granted, KQ is unlikely to have 3-bet PF, but AK and AQ sure fit the bill.

Besides, by the time it gets back to you, you almost have the odds to draw for the case Q. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Arcane]

im a very very agressive player, and I would cap the flop here. i might cap the turn, but if not i strongly suggest that you throw in a raise somewhere to see what you're up against. if someone plays back, i like your strategy.

[ike]

Is this a joke? You think you're USUALLY ahead on the turn there? Its up for debate whether or not he can even call, capping the turn is insane.

[Arcane]

im not advocating that you should cap here, im just saying that i would if i thought i was up against a straight. if you're not willing to raise the flop then this is a auto turn fold since it's 40-1 against hitting quads.

[cjx]

That's a really messy hand, I don't know exactly what I'd do. I'm thinking raise the flop, his 3bet could mean AK, AQ, KQ so I go ahead and cap it... if a blank hits and he bets out the turn I get worried about AA or KK. Unfortunately an A hits and you are probably drawing to a Q. I don't think I have the balls to fold so check call seems good to me.

cjx

[Tosh]

I'd raise the flop and call the turn and river.

[Alobar]

At this limit, I'd say 80% of all the people who cap pre flop are going to bet into you no matter what comes up on the flop. With out any information on the player I'm not giving him credit for the made hand. Thats why I raise, if he 3 bets me, I'm still capping....It's more likely he has AK than he does AA or KK according to baynes theory or whatever that is, but you can at least put him on one of those 3, where with out the raise youve got NO info.

The turn sucks complete ass, but the pot is big enough I prolly check call it down. But then If he bets into you again after capping the flop, folding is prolly the smart play (unless youve got odds to draw to the Q)

[Nottom]

OK, here are my thoughts on the hand.

Preflop - I think this is routine with all those coldcallers hanging around.

Flop - This seems to be one of the areas of disagreement, I wanted to get a raise in but with the pot being so big I figured I would wait until the turn and try and force the CO into a bad decision if he had a gutshot or some other weak draw that he would have more than enough odds to call if I raise the flop.

Turn: Well that was about the worst card I could imagine coming off the deck. No need to get rid of the CO anymore since hes likely draw dead now. The question now is can I possibly even be ahead anymore?

BB was a new player to me, I don't remember ever seeing him before so the only read I had was that I hadn't seen him do anything stupid ... yet. That being said, I've been 3-bet in the past 2 days by 62s, T7o, Q9o, A3o, and other such monsters not to mention the full range of pocket pairs. Since I don't know enough about this guy to give him credit for being a solid player and since 90% of party players would check a flopped set on the flop, I figured I had to call him down.

River: It wasn't a Q so nothing changed. Good thing too because he had AA.

[colgin]

Nottom,

I like your thinking on this hand. I probably raise the flop for the reasons already stated by others but I think your view is OK too. Unless I know more about the BB I am calling this one down on the turn and river like you did, but you had to expect (and you did) that you were beat. Good thing you didn't catch that Queen.

Colgin

[me454555]

He didnt cap the flop, the hero did. If he bets into me, I'd be a little concerned, even at the LLs.

What I meant to say was, raise the flop, call a 3 bet and when the ace hits on the turn, I'd fold b/c I don't think theres any hand I can beat.

If an A or K doesnt fall on the turn or river, I'd check call it down.

[bigsooner]

at what limit was this hand??? at what site??? at 2/4 or3/6 party this could easy be JT AX or KQ or even 68 dont tell me you guys havent seen plays like that, folding is out of the question raise the flop if he plays back again check and call DONT FOLD!!!!!

[Gomez22]

Nottom - Just out of curiosity, why no flop raise? I know that BB bets out here after you capped the flop, but why not raise to:

1. Limit the field (mainly get CO outta there)
2. Figure out where you stand

If BB 3-bets the flop, I can see calling down, especially after turning a boat, but the flop play seems a little weak to me. Was there something about BB as a player that you failed to mention? If so, let us know...

[GuyOnTilt]

If your preflop play was correct, I don't like your postflop play.

If your postflop play was correct, I don't like your preflop play.

GoT

[ScottTheFish]

Can you elaborate?

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]

Flop - This seems to be one of the areas of disagreement, I wanted to get a raise in but with the pot being so big I figured I would wait until the turn and try and force the CO into a bad decision if he had a gutshot or some other weak draw that he would have more than enough odds to call if I raise the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't this only apply when your sure you are in the lead? When your unsure as to if your behind or not, isn't raising on the flop where its cheaper better, than raising on the turn when your behind just to force the guy drawing into making a mistake?


This is also something I'm still grappling with. If you think someone is on a draw, don't you want to raise everytime anyway, regardless of weather or not they have the odds to draw on you, because that way you charge them the most to see thier cards?
If they have the odds its +EV for them, but isn't that money coming from the second best hands in the pot and not you? Isn't it +EV for you to charge them the max everytime as well??

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think someone is on a draw, don't you want to raise everytime anyway, regardless of weather or not they have the odds to draw on you, because that way you charge them the most to see thier cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily.

In general, if you raise a flop bet, many times the turn will be checked to you. If the pot is large enough, your opponent may be getting correct odds to call 2sb on the flop and 1bb on the turn. If you wait to raise, he may not be getting correct odds to call the 2bb on the turn.

It's situational, but there are times where it is correct.

[GuyOnTilt]

If your preflop play was correct, I don't like your postflop play.

Nottom should only cap preflop if his opponent will 3-bet from the blinds with hands other than AA, KK, and AK. His flop play indicates otherwise.

If your postflop play was correct, I don't like your preflop play.

If his opponent will 3-bet from the blinds with hands that Nottom should cap against (mediocre suited aces, JJ, TT) then he should play postflop more aggressively.

GoT

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]

Nottom should only cap preflop if his opponent will 3-bet from the blinds with hands other than AA, KK, and AK. His flop play indicates otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe if I was heads up, but there are 3 other callers hanging around. I think the preflop capp is mandatory.

Postflop - there are more combinations of AK then AA/KK so I think I have to think I am ahead here more often than not. After the A shows up, I am nearly certainly drawing to 1 out at best, but i think there is still a slight enough chance I am ahead against "random party player" that I feel i have to call him down.