Can you get away from this hand?

2-4 game, 3 limpers in front, 1 poster in back, I call one off the button with KTo we can discuss the relative merits of this play on a separate thread :-) The button folds, the sb calls, and the bb raises. No prob, I think, 7-way action for 2 bets...then the sb reraises, and the bb caps it. Only one person folds, so I'm looking at 6-way action for 4 bets if I call 2 more cold. Is it time to fold yet? I call.


Flop is QJ9, rainbow. Great googily-moogily...I'm already internally considering what to do if/when the board pairs. The bb bets out (I'm guessing AA-JJ here), and everyone calls to me, so I pop it. sb calls 2 cold (drawing) bb calls, and now the person to the left of the bb speaks up and reraises (tie?) we lose one person, I cap it, so we are capped 5 ways on the flop, with one person all-in.


Through my internal chants of "don't pair the board", something slips through...namely, a Ten - now the bb bets out. Okay, I tied KK, but could he really have AK? Can anyone realistically get away from this hand here?


We lose one more, and it's three ways for one bet on the river which is a blank. bb bets, one caller to me, and I call as well...we both pay off AKo ($91 pot in 2-4!) Turned out the person next to the bb had T8 (gotta love low-limit) and the bb had nailed 2-outer on the turn.


Was it correct to pay off here?

On the flop, you've got the nuts so there's no better strategy than to cap it while you've got the best possible hand and the pot is already big. Make people pay to draw out on you. Not much to analyze there.


On the turn and river, you've got to call since the pot has become gigantic. You could still have the best hand and BB is betting a set. BTW, BB missed a bet or two. He certainly should have check-raised on the turn. In fact the turn may have gone bet, you riase, BB 3-bets. He may have missed two bets there.


Let's not start a seperate thread discussing KTo. I'd probably call all those bets pre-flop as well. But, that doesn't make it right.

In answer to your first question, yeah, I'm folding KTo to BB's initial raise. And if I don't, then I absolutely fold to SB's reraise.


WARNING!--don't read the following if you'll get steamed about discussion of starters! Fair enough?


(With all due respect to your request not to discuss playing KTo, I think it's worth considering why KTo and T8[o or s?] lose to AKo--I mean, you've got the worst of it from jump street. Having the nuts on the flop is one thing, but the fact that two more cards are coming is one of the reasons WHY AK beats KTo and T8 as starters, if you take my meaning. Axs, KQs, QJs, yeah, okay. But KTo, I hope I wouldn't.)


Anyway, having seen the flop, I think you played it as well as possible.

I think we can classify your preflop cold call as 'self-weighting'. Even with the nuts on the flop, you were asking for trouble. The play was like that of many omaha hands I've seen where you know you're in the lead but you can feel trouble lurking.

In a 2/4 game with real loose players who will come in with anything, I wouldn't mind trying to sneak KTo into a 6 handed pot for one bet.


However, if one of the limpers in front of you is a tight player(rare, but not unheard of in 2/4) likely limp with hands like AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ and fold anything else OR if the blinds are aggressive then I would just fold KTo here.


So, IF you had a bunch of loose passive players limping ahead of you and likely to call behind you, I can't fault you for trying to sneak in.


That being said, you had one REAL good opportunity to get away from this hand.


When the BB raised and then capped it after the SB's limp-reraise, you know he probably has at least AKo and probably better.


So it's two bets back to you preflop and you got a stinky piece of cheese.


That was a perfect time to let that hand go instead of cold calling. KTs is a different story, but KTo is just big trouble waiting to happen.


After the flop, there was no other way to play it.


I think of it this way. About the best thing you can hope for with KTo is to make the straight. However, if the board flushes or pairs, you are in trouble, and another broadway card hitting definitely counterfeits you and could sink you.


KTo is just no fun in the pot you were in.


With KTs, if you hit your flush, it's much more likely to hold up and get action from hands that can't catch you. You know the A of your suit is likely out there so as long as 4 of the suit doesn't hit and the board doesn't pair you are OK. I realize Axs is possible, but I would take my chances in a nice big multiway pot anyway with KTs.


KTs is also much, much easier to let go of when it misses in the pot you describe, and you have a much better chance of at least a runner-runner flush redraw if you flop the straight.

The pot is too large to fold after the turn. As the hand turned out, with UTG having T8, you have a positive EV of about 1.1 big bets to call it down for the 3 times you chop with KK against the 12 times you lose to AK. However, the possibility that UTG flopped a set (unlikely as it was from the way he played it) gives him proper odds to draw out on the river and maybe swing things the other way. I'm not quite up to the calculations yet.

It depends on your read, I'd say. You had better be absolutely certain he is on AK before folding, since you're playing 2nd nuts. I certainly wouldn't have put him on AK, since if you had 6 way action, he's certainly not going to be buying the pot with a bet, especially since one of his cards (K) would make a straight for anyone with a ten.


That said, given he bet out, I'd figure AA-JJ, or AQ/AJ or maybe

AT, betting an overcard+open straight draw, with a bit weighting toward AQ if its a loose game. I'd have been more worried that one of the callers had AK and was having trouble letting it go. I might have switched to check-and-call after the 10.


Calling with KTo into a multiway is a bit crazy, I think. Your best scenario besides the miracle flop you got is probably a ten, so you can beat out QTs and JTs. With a hit on a K, unless you make 2 pair, you're almost certain to lose to AK or KK or such if you get any action. But I'd certainly figure you played the hand as well as it could have been played after the flop.