20/40 Flop Decision

[Barry]

Pretty decent 20/40 game at Foxwoods. There is one maniac that has dropped about $4,000, a couple of LAG's and one loose passive semi-calling station (SCS) to go along with some of the solid regulars.

I'm in the BB with 99.

Decent aggressive player open limps from MP, LAG raises from LP, SCS cold-calls on the button. I call from the BB. Anyone think that 3 betting to try to isolate the LAG is a good idea?

Flop is T8 rag, with 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif's, I don't have a diamond. LAG will always bet if checked to and has been known to raise the flop with overcards.

How would you play this flop and why? If you check the flop, assume that the LAG bets and the SCS calls


I know that there are some suboptions if you bet , such as folding to a raise, 3-bet a raise, or call a raise as well as options if you get 3-bet if you checkraise, but that would make the poll way too long...

[Barry]

I felt that there was a very good likelihood that I had the best hand as the LAG was raising with a wide variety hands, such as many pocket pairs and many 2 big cards. Since he has raised in the past with only overcards, a bet on the flop would not give me a whole lot of information with a bet., so I opted for the checkraise. MP folded, LAG called and the SCS on the button folded as well. Mission accomplished, I got heads up with the LAG.

He asked me “What do you need? Diamonds?” I told him “I’m already there; what do you need?” The flop was another non-diamond rag, I bet he called. The river was another non-diamond rag, and I checked hoping he might bluff at the pot thinking I missed my draw. I didn't think that he would call a river bet, as my table image was a pretty tight one. He checked behind. I showed my 99 and he mucked.

BTW - Who ever said that the FW's 20/40 is the toughest 20/40 game in the country is nuts. I've only played 20/40 at the Mirage, but this game is not that tough, you just need to make sure that your careful against the couple of good players.

[Indian Ocean]

you know bet the river too.. These guys are weak. Bet it.. Collect your 40 bucks.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW - Who ever said that the FW's 20/40 is the toughest 20/40 game

[/ QUOTE ]

It really surprises me someone would say that, because I find the 4/8, 5/10 and 10/20 games much softer than Vegas or AC.

[Barry]

Is this to simple of a situation to be interesting?

[Monkeyslacks]

[ QUOTE ]
He asked me “What do you need? Diamonds?”

[/ QUOTE ]

Answer: "Well, I could use another ace..."

[Jeffage]

Bet the river and hope he calls with his Ace high or some other bs pair...easy bet in my mind.

Jeff

[eugeneel]

nah I like inducing a bluff here.

As far as the 20-40 at foxwoods being tough... There are times where it's just the usuals at the table (I always wonder why the hell don't they all just go home at those times) and the game gets very very tight and agressive. At those times I could say that it was by far the hardest poker game I had ever been in. The games have been good lately though (I have been there about three times in the last two months.)

[cepstrum]

hi barry -

i would not try to isolate the lag before the flop.

on the flop, however, i would bet. this accomplishes two things: first, you put the mp in the unpleasant spot of being between a bettor and a player who is likely to raise. so he will either fold overcards, or make it really easy for you to guess his hand when he calls anyway. second, it gives lag the opportunity to raise his overcards, which will make it tough for the cold-caller to continue with _his_ overcards, be they aj, kq, kj, or qj.

since you are out of position, you should just call lag's raise, and if mp is still in the pot, you should be cautious on the turn if a diamond or straight card falls. but if mp is gone, check-raising the lag on the turn is a good option as long as no paint card falls.

finally, should you get heads-up with the lag, plan to see a showdown and try to keep the river to one bet. if it's not heads-up, use your judgement. if straights, flushes, and overcards all come in, be disinclined to pay a bet on the river. if only a flush card or only a straight/overcard comes, you can be more apt to call river bets.

good luck

cepstrum

[cepstrum]

hi barry -

i like your reasoning on the river, unless of course the lag would call your bet with ace-high. Edit: or an underpair.

that said, i'm interested in why you think you are getting more information from lag by check-raising the flop than by betting. i would be inclined to think that information from a lag is unreliable, and if he is capable of 3-betting overcards here, you are in trouble. at the same time, by check-raising you are giving him reliable information. whether he intends to use it or indeed is capable of using it is another issue. but i would think that the primary goal on the flop is to get heads-up with the lag without revealing the strength of your hand, allowing you to get at least one shot at two big bets (by check-raising the turn).

good luck

cepstrum

[Barry]

Hi Eugueneel -

Maybe you are right that this game was tough when they only had 1 table going, but now that there are 3 or 4 (as there was Friday night) the good players are spread out enough so that even us mediocre players have a chance in the game.

[Barry]

My take on this guys play is that he would almost autoraise any bet. As such I wouldn't be sure if he had a big pair, overcards or even a smaller pair. But if I checkraised him, I would suspect that he would only 3-bet if I was beat. So if I was behind, I'd rather find out on the flop rather than on the turn. It also has the benefit of forcing MP to call 2 cold which would help to better define his hand if he called, but I would rather he fold.

On the river, I didn't think that he would call a bet with his big A or underpair, but might bluff at the pot thinking that I missed my flush.

[Joe Tall]

Who ever choose check/fold should be shot.

I think I'd check-raise the flop trying to isolate the LAG.

Sorry I didn't make it there, Barry. I made the final move last weekend and I was beat. Of course, as soon as I get moved in, the boys show up and we play until 7AM.

Hope the little one is well,
Joe

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
so I opted for the checkraise. MP folded, LAG called and the SCS on the button folded as well. Mission accomplished, I got heads up with the LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

The LAG bet and you check-raised, right? Or did you bet and only the LAG called?

[ QUOTE ]
- Who ever said that the FW's 20/40 is the toughest 20/40 game in the country is nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this was the addage before the poker-boom. As 20/40 is routinely the highest spread. Now, I see so many bad players in that game that I know I should be in it. But I spent 3k of my poker roll moving into the new place so I'm leaving myself at 10/20 for a bit.

I think your river decision is fine given your read on your opponent.

Peace,
Joe

[cepstrum]

hi barry -

if he would only 3-bet when you are beat, then fine, though i do have reservations about beleiving it. i still think that putting the mp in the middle is just as good as making him call two cold, as far as defining his hand. unless he's too clueless to realize that the bet is going to get raised.

i also agree that inducing a bluff on the river is the best outcome, since you want one bet but don't like facing a raise. but from my perspective, he would have to be more than just too loose and too aggressive to fall for it after you showed so much strength on both the flop and turn. he would have to be either fairly maniacal or fairly unthinking before i would judge my chances of getting a bet that way to be very good. if one of those shoes fits him, good job.

good luck

cepstrum

[Barry]

I'm sorry you couldn't make it down either. I bought good cigars. Marie is doing great.

The place was a zoo. There must have been 40 names each on the 2/4, 4/8 and 5/10 lists. The 10/20 and 20/40 games however only had a few names on the list, but they had 5 10/20 and 4 20/40 games going Friday night.

I must have been because of the fight on Friday.

[ACPlayer]

sometimes it is awful. The main game in particular. The weekend must moves are fine.

[nykenny]

i would have just bet out on the flop. if MP folds and LAG raises, button folds, you get heads up with 2 bets. if MP raises, then you know to fold on turn if no improvement.

anyway,
[ QUOTE ]
BTW - Who ever said that the FW's 20/40 is the toughest 20/40 game in the country is nuts. I've only played 20/40 at the Mirage, but this game is not that tough, you just need to make sure that your careful against the couple of good players.

[/ QUOTE ]
i might have said something like that, i meant the games is one of the tightest.. i still think i am right. but game can change. and on any given day, it might be good anyways.

i don't like raked 20-40 games, and the people there tip very little to dealers let along floorman... not a fun environment imo. i also don't like the dealers sharing tips.

kenny

[daryn]

you tip floormen? do they hook you up with better games? as far as i have noticed i doubt the floormen at foxwoods even know what a good game is

[Barry]

Daryn -

Be pleasant with them and you'll be surprised what they'll tell you.