Button - open limp or raise... fold?

[Eric P]

I had always thought that if you are folded to on the button the best play is probably to raise. This is probably true except for your worst hands, and depending on the game this can be true. Playing mostly at 6-12 and 10-20 i'd say there is probably a 45% chance that the bliind will give it to you. The problem is that hard to play the rest of the hand when you flop bottom or middle pair.

So assuming that you have 1 tricky/good player and 1 easy player what is cutoff for hands that you should fold/play. Is there anything to be said for limping with any hands? AA KK? AKs? or should everything be raised. I would imagine that vs. a trick player who is aggressive limping with those three hands can be profitable, can as profitable as raising???

[James282]

if tricky is also observant than you should raise...limping is a huge warning sign for me if it comes from an aggressive player.
-James

[Monkeyslacks]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there anything to be said for limping with any hands? AA KK? AKs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't limp as I have a phobia about seeing my AA snapped off by 47o that I just can't shake...

[AQheartbreak]

It all depends if you ever limp from cutoff or button. IF you mostly steal-raise, then raise with big pairs and ak, they expect it. If you limp a good amount of the time, then maybe you can get away with slowplay here. But you can also slowplay the flop after a preflop raise with your big pairs, it all depends on what your opponents are accustomed to. Do you ever check after a preflop raise hoping to induce a bet from your opponent on the turn?

[elysium]

hi eric
this is a little complex, but you should normally limp in from the button with KQo and raise in with AKo. here's the complex part; you should usually limp in with KTo and raise in with anything weaker including AX to A9 but limp in with AT from the button. with AJ you should once again raise in.

what is happening here is that when you raise in from the button, you want to win right now. but as you know, often these steal raises from the button are not believed and a bigger hand will reraise you. so, with AT, from the button, you limp in hoping to get action from draws etc. you actually want your AT to win on the show-down unimproved. but with AJ you can raise from the button because now you have a reasonable chance of being in the lead even if you get reraised. with AX you raise in because now you're looking to steal the blinds and you are hoping that if you get reraised, you will flop something to keep you in beyond the turn. with KTo you once again limp in because only a bigger hand will reraise you or call the raise. with K9 you raise in to steal and hope to flop. with KQo you limp in from the button but raise in from the CO, while with AKo from the CO you might limp in but from the button you would raise in because now the strength of your hand is concealed. but it's not concealed from the CO.

what to do from LP when first in is a delicate balancing act in which you're keenly aware about whether you will need to have a pair by the turn and whether your hand strength is concealed. you do not just blindly raise in for example, with AJ from the button without considering whether or not you need your hand to improve. if you raise in with the AJ, you will need to hit a pair by the turn but if you limp in and don't get raised, you can continue on past the turn unimproved if all looks well. with AJ from the cutoff you always raise in because from the cutoff with the same AJ, you are looking to steal and will need to improve by the turn because now you're cutting through three opponents instead of two meaning that a stronger hand is more likely by the turn. but with AKo from the CO you limp because the strength of your hand is not hidden but raise in from the button because now your hand strength is hidden. it's a delicate balancing act and you need to be aware that when you raise in from late position, the danger exists that a stronger hand is out there so sometimes, with KT and KJ for example, limping in is best from the button and raising in is best from the CO. the idea is that you would rather fight from the button not being conscious that a hand capable of calling a raise is against you. in hold em, from the button, sometimes ignorance is bliss. from the CO with those same hands, you now should raise in hoping to steal and at worst hoping to improve to a pair by the turn. but you limp in with AKo from the CO because the strength of your hand isn't hidden but raise in from the button with AKo because now the strength is hidden. and yes, i know all the books say you should just go for the steal raise but that's not right. with small suited connectors you should always limp in because now your hand wants multi-way action. with a small connector first in from the button, it's a toss up of whether to limp or raise. you need to base the limp or raise on how likely it is that you will successfully steal vs. getting called or reraised. if you think you'll get reraised then folding is correct with the small connector but not with the small suited connector. the same is true for small pairs less than 77. if you think a raise will win right now, then raise in from the button. from the CO you would almost never enter in with a small connector and anything stronger than that, but less than AJ should almost always be limped in. a lot depends on how weak tight the blinds are. much depends on what type of reasonable hand you have. it's not enough to say 'oh, i have a reasonable hand therefore i'll steal.'. what is your position? how strong is your hand? when your opponents call your raise, do you like knowing that bit of info? is it better sometimes not to know that your against a hand capable of calling a raise? when is it best not to know that? can ignorance sometimes be bliss in hold em? do i want to raise and open a pandoras box of info? when i was young i liked playing marbles. back then, we weren't troubled with nuisansome decisions greater than aim and plunk. so keep it simple as you would in marbles. think 'aim plunk'. you'll fill up your little leather bag soon enough. and drive safely. no sense in hurrying.

[Clarkmeister]

Elysium,

I missed you being around, but when you write:

"this is a little complex, but you should normally limp in from the button with KQo and raise in with AKo. here's the complex part; you should usually limp in with KTo and raise in with anything weaker including AX to A9 but limp in with AT from the button. with AJ you should once again raise in."

I pretty much am forced to say that this is dead wrong in case anyone new thinks it might be right.

[Barry]

I only open limp from the button (or the CO) for that matter as a very rare variance play. If I've decided that I have enough of a hand to come in with, it's with a raise.

[elysium]

hi clark
oh shoot clark, i know most pundits will just raise to steal with most of those hands, but that is not right. sucessful late position play includes factoring into the mix the possibility that the blinds have a slightly stronger hand than you think and that some of your steal-raising hands go down in value. on the other side of the equation is factoring in how well your strong hands are concealed. lastly, with AT for example, from the button, you might not want to know that the blinds are strong enough to call a raise. yes, pre-planned ignorance is sometimes correct. and clark, whew....you don't have to tell me that telling others to be ignorant about his opponents hand strength will not curry much favor here or anywhere. and yes, i totally agree that it makes no sense. we're here to learn and i'm advocating ignorance of all things. and no, you're not nit picking. i deserve to be challenged on every one of these assertions. however, do offer a reasonable explaination for raising in from the button with ATo. now, in all fairness, we aren't that far apart in theory because i raise in with AX to A9 and AJ thru AK. it's only AT that i call from the button with. and i do this with KJ and KQ as well. why? because with these hands i don't want to face an opponent who has a hand strong enough to call a raise with. if i limp and he raises, that's fine. what's the difference? well now i face an opponent who has raised me with a weaker hand. that's fine. but notice that if i raise in and he calls, even if he has the same hand, i face a stronger opponent.

this upends conventional late position play that always has the blinds weaker than they may be and your AT or KQ stronger. but doggonnit clark, i have found that the blinds are stronger and the KQ and AT is weaker say what you will. i have found that juggling the the stronger starters with concealed hand strength in a balancing act that gives the blinds a little more credit and my strongest hands a little more stealth to be the preferred way of handling situations against non-weak tight blinds. now, if the blinds are weak tight or for some other reason you suspect they will fold if raised, then of course raising is always correct except those times you have very strong starters in the CO.

i'm an excellent steal-raiser from as early positions as LMP, but the notion that AT or KQ is a powerhouse against the blind that calls your raise is not correct. with KT you should always steal-raise because that's all that hand is good for and it is possibly the leader. you never call with it. but simply because you always raise with KT in this spot, does not mean that always raising in with KQ is correct. with KQ you give the blind more credit, with KT you give him less, even though he is less powerful against KQ than he is against KT no matter what he holds. so the strength you credit him with has nothing to do with his real hand strength but rather your hand strength. and the strength you credit him with rises and falls depending on whether he calls a raise by you, or whether he raises when you limp. it rises and falls respectively. and this variance has nothing to do with his cards. it has to do with instead with what you allow him to represent. if you allow him to call your raise, your hand weakens and his strengthens. so wouldn't you rather, with AT or KQ, want his hand to have to pair by the turn rather than yours which may win unimproved. but, if he calls a raise and bets into you on the turn, well, you'll be hard pressed to make the call or bluff raise unimproved. so what you allow him to represent determines who must improve on the turn. if your hand can win unimproved, why not give it every chance to do so.

this is ask backwards from every tenet on late position play i've ever read. i know. and yes, i could be wrong. but this is what i think is going on in late position play. at a gut level, i think the current theory has the blinds weaker than they are.

[elysium]

[Clarkmeister]

Oh. Well in that case it makes all the sense in the world.

[andyfox]

I would advise never to limp on the button with A-A, K-K, or A-Ks. When you raise first in from the button they will put you on a weaker hand and may re-raise (which you want them to do with A-A, K-K or A-Ks) or call with relatively weak holdings.

If you never limped first in on the button, you wouldn't be wrong too often. The only time it should be considered is if you have a hand that is not great, but is too good to fold, and one of the blinds will never surrender his blind to a raise.

[MHoydilla]