4-8 Hand

This is a 4-8 that I played the other day at foxwoods that I feel I played correctly but was told otherwise by the person that won the hand. There were 4 or 5 callers to be in the cutoff and I look down to see 99. The small blind calls, big blind checks. The flop comes KK9 with two hearts. The big blind checks, early position bets, I call, big blind calls, everyone else folds. The turn comes the 4 of spades. Perfect card since it's unlikely someone has K4. The same person bets the turn. I, of course raise and the big blind calls two cold. The original bettor shows his hand to his friend and says "I should muck this, right?", then proceeds to call the raise. The river comes a ten. They both check to me. I don't really like this card since either one of my opponents might have played K10 but I bet anyway. The big blind calls and now the player that almost mucked the turn raises. I know that I'm beat, but I can't bring myself to lay it down. I call, big blind calls. He tables 1010 and I almost puke. I can't believe this guy not only bet the turn but then called a raise when there was a cold call of two bets. Anyways, I know I want the guy in there, but it hurts when they hit.


My question is whether the slowplay till the turn was correct. I'm pretty sure it was but the 1010 guy said I never should have slowplayed the hand. I told him if you give me the situation again I want him in there every time.


The only reason I post this bad beat is because he said I mis played it. What does everyone else think?


Peace

Goodie

I think the decision to slow play is a close one. I would not do it here for several reasons when playing in these small games. First, there is a two-flush on the table and players will hang around anyway so you might as well charge them to play even when they are drawing dead. Second, you have two cards in the playing zone (a king and a nine) making all kinds of gutshot straight-draws possible with QJ, QT, and JT and these players will probably call as well in these low limit games. Third, with all these players taking a flop, you want to charge someone playing trip kings the maximum price for chasing you. Having the under-full means you have a good hand but you are vulnerable so make a guy with trip kings pay to chase you. Fourth, you are giving someone with a good second pair (that is QQ, JJ, or TT) a cheap card to play their two outer and fill. In these little games, guys frequently just limp in preflop with medium and even big pocket pairs.


Now all that being said, your slow play is not a big mistake maybe just a small one. The advantage of slow playing is that you do give players chasing flush and straight draws a chance to make their hand and maybe pay you off even more when they hit.


I don't think you misplayed the hand. I think you made a close but tough decision and got a bad result.

Thanks for the response, Jim.


I have a few questions. I'll address your response point by point. First, I believe I want the flush draws to come with me, and by raising the turn, I'm pretty sure that I am charging them the max to stay in the hand. Second, the gutshot straight draws that are out there are probably not going to call two bets on the flop but will call one. Since there was only the small and large blind still to act after me on the flop, if either of them have a gutshot, I want them to stay and I don't believe they will if I raise the flop. Third, anyone with trip kings playing 4-8 is going to see the river and call the river no matter what I do, so I believe that raising the turn, I am definetly charging them the most to see the hand through. On the fourth point, anyone with a good second pair is going to call the raise on the flop, since it's too likely I might be raising a good second pair or a flush draw. And then they may see the river for only one bet if they check to me on the turn and I bet. However, they may not see the river if I raise the turn because they know I have to have at least trip kings to do so.


Thanks for the input but I still believe that waiting for the turn was the best option.


Peace

Goodie

I think your hand was too weak to slowplay. Not sure if two small bets would have folded the BB on the flop, but I would have raised it.

Personally, I would have raised the flop. First realize you are not going to get anyone with a King out of this hand. So, if they outdraw you to a better hand, that's life. But you do want the hands that are drawing slim/dead to your hand to call.


The conventional thinking in poker (at least where I play) is to raise on the turn with trips. People don't put you on a big hand when you raise the flop as opposed to the turn.You want pocket 10s to call 2 small bets on the flop and pay you off for 2 more BB on the turn and river. You want the flush draw to think he is drawing live. And I think a raise on the flop achieves this.


As it turned out you just ran into some bad luck on a 2-outer. As far as your opponent is concerned, I don't know what he meant by you slow-playing your hand. Does he mean if you had raised on the flop, he would have mucked? I don't think so. I think he was going to the river no matter what.


Better Luck next time.

I don't understand. No amount of betting was going to get rid of three kings, so why wouldn't I wait till the turn to raise so that I would charge three kings to draw to his four outter? It makes no sense to me to raise the flop. Please explain.


Peace

Goodie

OK, two things.


First off, I played a similar hand last week, where I flopped tens full of queens with pocket tens. I posted the hand and asked how I played it, and whether I should have raised the flop. The consensus wasn't unanimous, but leaned towards YES, I should have raised the flop. No one with a heart draw would fold here for your raise, or at least ALMOST no one (there's always SOMEONE…). Anyone with a king isn't going anywhere, and if you're lucky, both will be out, and neither will have hit their kicker too. So you're likely to get raised by someone with a king, in which case you can reraise, thus charging the king(s) and flush draws the max to hit their 3 or 4 outers, or draw dead. Plus, the guys with the tens probably would have folded. I am pretty convinced that when you flop a full like this one, where your set is bottom and the top card is paired, you should virtually never slowplay. Next time it happens to me, I am NOT going to slowplay, and I will post the hand here as well.


Second, whether your critic-opponent was right or wrong, why did you discuss it with him? He was wrong to call even one bet in this situation most of the time, so just let him go on thinking he was right, and playing that way, chasing two outers. Tell him something to make yourself look like an idiot, or at least like an unimaginative, unskilled player. I know there are a few players we all discuss stuff with, but keep it at a FEW, and only the ones who you know for a fact are "students of the game," and don't discuss it at the table.


Dave in Cali

Actually someone holding the King has 7 outs on the river, since the board could pair also. Those holding AA, QQ, JJ, or 10 10 all have four outs to beat you, i.e. a third king on the board would also beat you, and would win the pot for them if the fourth king is not out.


Your hand is very vulnerable and should be raised immediately.

Hey Dave I have been reading your post for a while and while I really respect the techno advice of others like Jim, I really think you hit the nail on the head with this nugget.

I play in a game with fairly clueless folks and every once in a while a professor sits down and tries to teach a lesson to the fish. I always play the fool and help the fish to feel good about thier play and counter the professor as much as possible.

Lance

I would of raised the flop here. Slow playing would of been correct if the flop were 9,5,5...as long as you had top set, then I would of slowplayed. But you need to punish the players who have pocket pairs also...such as the 10,10. If you raised on the flop here, the BB may of called the flop, but would of most likely threw his hand away on the turn. Maybe he would of still drawn to the river...but there is a better chance he would not of if a raise on the flop took place.


Billy

What he is saying is...if you raise on the flop, the BB MAY muck his hand on the turn. If you simply call the flop, you are showing weakness, which is what the BB exploited. By showing weakness on the flop, he didn't put you on Kings...that is why he called the two bets on the river.


Maybe I am wrong...but I agree with Richard...I would of raised on the flop here.


Billy